Coming soon: New OR Diesel Exhaust Effects

[seagoon]

Isn't this a wonderfully diverse hobby?! It caters to every taste.

At one end of the scale we have the Trackage Simulation aficianado and at the other end the Simulated Particle Behaviour enthusiast.
Somewhere in the middle is the dull, everyday, run-of-the-mill bloke who just wants to play trains.

Bruce

[geekman]

I'm really excited about where OR is today and how fast it's advancing. And while I, too, just like to drive trains, I've always been a little disappointed in the way both MSTS and OR show engine exhaust. Needless to say, I'm really in 7th Heaven to see that OR is actually taking a realistic approach to trying to accurately produce the exhaust plume. Believe me, once they get this right, I doubt if I'll ever fire up MSTS again.

[seagoon]

....Believe me, once they get this right, I doubt if I'll ever fire up MSTS again.

Well, I have to "fire up" MSTS to use the Activity Editor, and that is quite often.

If/when OR has its own editing suite then I will remove MSTS from the drive and free up some space but in the meantime it is as essential part of my train-simming.

Bruce

[OTTODAD]

Here is some locos smoke from another train simulator, environmental diesel and oil-fired steamer emissions:

http://www.otto-wipfel.co.uk/video/locos-exhausts.wmv
Alt-Enter to view Full-Screen.

Smoke particles density can be varied in their files.

O t t o

[apco25]

I keep a stripped down route editing only MSTS install that has nothing it until I move a route there to work on it. Train.exe (aside from editing) hasn't been run in nearly a year and as I have pointed out in other threads no longer exists outside of the route editing folder.

Back to the exhaust, it's exhaust, not smoke (at least for a diesel) which is about has wrong as saying clip when you mean magazine in the firearms world.

Dispersion is the big issue. The exhaust now is too thick. It's just as bad on a steamer. Exhaust never looked right in MSTS either. The color change from white, to grey to black is too distinct. Exhaust comes out heavy in the vertical plain and immediately stars to disperse in a rolling, random expanding shape. We need wind effects to dissipate. Heavy exhaust under load and throttle up is great, but we are still way off from where we should be.

In x1565 stationary units ( yes I use dead in tow in addition to running AI units) look like they are at run 8 with a tornado above them.

We need a good global parameter to then work with the tweaks within the engine file. If I had to go edit everything, oh boy that's monumental to accomplish.

[GoGoran]

Here is some locos smoke from another train simulator, environmental diesel and oil-fired steamer emissions:

http://www.otto-wipfel.co.uk/video/locos-exhausts.wmv
Alt-Enter to view Full-Screen.

Smoke particles density can be varied in their files.

O t t o

Wow, that smoke looks pretty realistic (though it should move a little slower) ... which sim is that ?

[seagoon]

....We need wind effects to dissipate. ....

Really?! Wind effects?
In a program designed essentially to have the player simulating the operation of a train/trains, we need wind effects?

Flight sims, I can understand and fully endorse. After all, air forms a very important part of flying.

Bruce

[OTTODAD]

Wow, that smoke looks pretty realistic (though it should move a little slower) ... which sim is that ?

Railworks-3 TS-2013.

O t t o

[gramps1]

I think the new exhaust effect is a MAJOR improvement, but I really think on the diesel engines, it really needs to go back to the throttle settings instead of the rpm.

I've never worked on or been a around a locomotive engine, but have many other diesel engines and throttle position is the key. When the engine is idleing and you advance the throttle it's dumping fuel into it. So you're going to have more "smoke" until it reaches the throttle setting you have, then levels out. If it can't reach it due to load, then it will keep making more "smoke" until it does or the throttle is reduced. SAme goes for every time the throttle is advanced.

The opposite for when you throttle down. You're in a way shutting the fuel off until it reaches that throttle setting. So no "smoke"( or very, very little ) until it reaches that setting, regardless of the rpm of the engine.

The more fuel being sent, the higher the rpm's.. more exhaust "smoke".

Don't want this to seem like a slam or gripe, because it's not. I appreciate everything that's been done, but really think O R had that part right.

Just a penny's worth from an old shade tree diesel mechanic.

Thanks,

Anthony

[apco25]

I'm not saying we need some kind of complex wind system, but the effects of wind dispersion on the exhaust does need to be modeled. The current static atmosphere isn't realistic as wind directly impacts what the exhaust particles do.

[rdamurphy]

I think the new exhaust effect is a MAJOR improvement, but I really think on the diesel engines, it really needs to go back to the throttle settings instead of the rpm.

I've never worked on or been a around a locomotive engine, but have many other diesel engines and throttle position is the key. When the engine is idleing and you advance the throttle it's dumping fuel into it. So you're going to have more "smoke" until it reaches the throttle setting you have, then levels out. If it can't reach it due to load, then it will keep making more "smoke" until it does or the throttle is reduced. SAme goes for every time the throttle is advanced.

The opposite for when you throttle down. You're in a way shutting the fuel off until it reaches that throttle setting. So no "smoke"( or very, very little ) until it reaches that setting, regardless of the rpm of the engine.

The more fuel being sent, the higher the rpm's.. more exhaust "smoke".

Don't want this to seem like a slam or gripe, because it's not. I appreciate everything that's been done, but really think O R had that part right.

Just a penny's worth from an old shade tree diesel mechanic.

Thanks,

Anthony

First, I don't consider this a "slam or gripe" at all, I consider it very valuable feedback, along with what everyone else has contributed. And, since I asked for feedback, I much appreciate the honest and frank discussion.

Soooo... Here's the issue. EVERY new improvement to OR affects Framerates. They're either better, or they're worse. So, having said that: When you drop the throttle to idle, the exhaust pretty much disappears, as you mentioned. The issue with the throttle settings is it's difficult to come up with a way to make the exhaust rise and fall without making it look toy-like, so I went with the rpm settings.

As far as rising and scattering, that would be an excellent effect, however, rather difficult and costly FPS-wise to program.

I can easily add some more randomness to the exhaust effect, with no adverse affects.

In addition, I used the three stock locomotives for the screenies. Better locomotives with better .eng files produce a lot better effects. Remember, we're still using the parameters in the .eng file, so it is adjustable.

I'm at a slight bottleneck right now, but I'd like to get this in the next experimental release so people can look at it up-close in the game, in the meantime, I'll see if I can't get a video up...

Thanks for all of the great input, it is much appreciated!

Robert

[geekman]

..... Here's the issue. EVERY new improvement to OR affects Framerates......

Please, don't start compromising because of it's effect on framerates so early in the development cycle. If you start doing this now, you may as well revert back to MSTS.

[seagoon]

Please, don't start compromising because of it's effect on framerates so early in the development cycle. If you start doing this now, you may as well revert back to MSTS.

Oh, c'mon now, Larry! That's a bit dramatic!
Every game/sim has compromises and never in the field of computer-game creation has the end product met the expectations and desires of every player.

For me, I'd rather see FPS maintained in the plus-60s at the expense of highly realistic exhaust smoke.

Bruce

[GoGoran]

For me, I'd rather see FPS maintained in the plus-60s at the expense of highly realistic exhaust smoke.
Bruce

Everything above 30fps is a waste of computer ressources. It should always stay between 24 - 30fps for seemless motion and best use of ressources.

And regarding the fps-impact, I am sure there must be an easy way (as in easy on the computing ressources) to get realistic smoke, compare Railworks 3 / TS 2013. The OR developpers may not have figured it out yet, but eventually they will ... if they try and keep looking and researching.

[seagoon]

Everything above 30fps is a waste of computer ressources. It should always stay between 24 - 30fps for seemless motion and best use of ressources. ....

Yeah, and that old furphy has been doing the rounds since silent movies!

Bruce