Modification of vector with track items

[Archimage]

I am a route builder with some experience. Nowdays i have to work with the route where i have to modify some vectors (change one-two track sections on vector for Pnt sections to prevent MSTS bug with collision on a long none-pnt-section vector) with track objects (signals, limits, kms) on it. In 50% cases i face some problems with database after that (MSRE fail to normally save databese on that tiles after the modification of vector and only TSRE "vector assassin" hack can help in that situation). I tried it lots of times and still dont understand why in some cases the vector is modified without bad effects and in another cases its gg to the vector.
Can you tell me some tips and hints how to modify the vector with track objects on it in a safe way? Deletion of dozens track objects on a long vector is not an option cause the guy who place them wont forgive.

[ebnertra000]

There is NO way to do that. Editing a track vector with interactives on it is one of the mortal sins of route building

[Archimage]

But there were situations in another route where i did so and it works quite stable both in single and multiplayer.... so there should be dependencies between the style of modding the track and the results.

[GokuMK]

There is NO way to do that. Editing a track vector with interactives on it is one of the mortal sins of route building

TSRE, unlike MSRE, is designed to handle editing track vector with interactives.
It is not recommended, because there is no warning if you remove Track directly under interactive object. And also signal links on this vector may be damaged in some cases.
So it is possible but risky.

[Vince]

Altering Track with Interactive Objects Present? Not a safe practice.

You're arguing with an experienced route builder because you did something in the past and you got lucky?

Interactive track items reference their position using coordinates of the Nodes in a track vector. If you really 'KNOW' what you are doing then you can in some rare cases make this work but most time you will end up in the ditch.

So you are free to do it any way you want . . . maybe your luck will continue but I predict not.

And by the way, single or multi player has absolutely nothing to do with how interactive items are referenced. The fact that you used that as part of your argument at tells me you don't know how the referenced items operate in the Sim.

I'd be v e r y, v e r y careful on how you operate as it's obvious you are using assumptions as rules. That always ends in disaster. You are setting yourself up for failure.

How should you do it?
First you must have an understanding of the relationship of all the database files involved . . .
There are five (5) database files involved with ANY modification of track or roads.

If you can't answer the question; What function is performed by the Track Item Table? . . . yes = then you are qualified.
If not you need to know this because when the route slags, you'll need that knowledge to recover the route.
If your okay with that, read on . . . . .

If you're modding track remove ALL interactives from the vector.

Definition of Vector: That track that spans the distance between two TrackNodes.

Definition of A TrackNodes:
1. An EndNode. ( displays as a blue pole in the editor )
2. A JunctionNode. (displays as a red pole in the editor)
Any number track sections ended by any combination of the above two nodes comprise a Track Vecrtor.
(you can see a vector can be many, many miles long and cover multiple tiles so be very careful.

One more tidbit:
Signals on a particular track vector MAY have a link to a switch on a different vector on an adjacent Tile.
If you mess with linked signals, usually the two head absolute types, you WILL destroy the links and they will have to be re-done.

Bottom line:
These forums are littered with the wreckage of slagged routes built and destroyed by folks that 'assumed' just like you are doing is okay because they got with it in the past.
Good luck with that.

Aside to Goku: Not for anything Goku, but breaking into a vector with interactives and adding a turnout is a VERY fast way to kill a route because I tried it and blew the route. Tried it again as a test under more controlled conditions and the new Node totally fouled the TrackItemTable. Adding a Node will kill a route confirmed.

regards,

[GokuMK]

Aside to Goku: Not for anything Goku, but breaking into a vector with interactives and adding a turnout is a VERY fast way to kill a route because I tried it and blew the route. Tried it again as a test under more controlled conditions and the new Node totally fouled the TrackItemTable. Adding a Node will kill a route confirmed.

Could you describe a way to do it? I discovered a bug with signal links, but other things should work fine. If not, then it's TSRE bug.

[Vince]

Hi Goku,

I have only been able to select track, Z. adjust grade or alignment then Z beck into the DB. Anything else like inserting a turnout would produce errors that required a restore from backup. Altering the length also produced errors with signals and siding markers.

If I tried replacing a Dynamic Track section and there were signals on the vector the signal red pyramid markers had vanished but the signal shape remained. Display TDB Items did not show a black cube. Fix was delete signal shape, save then install new signal.

regards,

[Archimage]

I discovered a bug with signal links, but other things should work fine.

The case is: i delete a track section with no track items on it (but with dozen items on the track vector) and change it for some straight sections and 2 turnouts. Such modification is properly saved in TSRE but in 50-60% cases if i open MSRE after that modification and load that tile i have a problem with saving in MSRE with "error saving database" window and MSRE saves only static changes on that tile and no interactive changes. Still in TSRE in any case all works fine and i can save interactive object changes well on the modified vector. I dont know why all works fine in TSRE but there is a probability to have a tile bugged in MSRE.

[joe_star]

I usually live dangerously, but I do concur editing track where interactives exist is a more or less sure bet of some corruption. Not only that but the effect can be insidious and affect track or items you lay later on at totally different places, due to how the TDB organization takes place.

Long story short, if you have to edit track with interactives installed, delete all interactives in between the 2 track nodes where the track is to be edited.

[Archimage]

Long story short, if you have to edit track with interactives installed, delete all interactives in between the 2 track nodes where the track is to be edited.

Thanks. Did it in this way today in TSRE. The result is good - even no signal links are broken.

[GokuMK]

The case is: i delete a track section with no track items on it (but with dozen items on the track vector) and change it for some straight sections and 2 turnouts. Such modification is properly saved in TSRE but in 50-60% cases if i open MSRE after that modification and load that tile i have a problem with saving in MSRE with "error saving database" window and MSRE saves only static changes on that tile and no interactive changes. Still in TSRE in any case all works fine and i can save interactive object changes well on the modified vector. I dont know why all works fine in TSRE but there is a probability to have a tile bugged in MSRE.

I think that it is not directly caused by interactives, but differences in TSRE and MSRE TDB rebuilding and this MSRE bug (maybe feature for low memory management while writing interactives?) described here:
http://www.elvastower.com/forums/ind...ost__p__196269
But in this case, MSRE just crashes without error.

[GokuMK]

I have only been able to select track, Z. adjust grade or alignment then Z beck into the DB. Anything else like inserting a turnout would produce errors that required a restore from backup. Altering the length also produced errors with signals and siding markers.

If I tried replacing a Dynamic Track section and there were signals on the vector the signal red pyramid markers had vanished but the signal shape remained. Display TDB Items did not show a black cube. Fix was delete signal shape, save then install new signal.

This sounds impossible. Maybe an TSRE bug introduced later, so I didn't noticed it.
It has to be investigated and fixed.

[joe_star]

Thanks. Did it in this way today in TSRE. The result is good - even no signal links are broken.

Good for you. Depending on your track layout and complexity results may vary

I myself used to do same, but have stopped now after several times running into TDB corruption and spending a better part of a day to remedy it

[Archimage]

Good for you. Depending on your track layout and complexity results may vary

I myself used to do same, but have stopped now after several times running into TDB corruption and spending a better part of a day to remedy it

Did you have problems in TSRE or in MSRE only? In MSRE you can corrupt the tdb even if you save immidiatly after deleting the track item without moving static object after it. MSRE is a stupid editor with hundred bugs.

[joe_star]

Did you have problems in TSRE or in MSRE only? In MSRE you can corrupt the tdb even if you save immidiatly after deleting the track item without moving static object after it. MSRE is a stupid editor with hundred bugs.

I've never edited busy tiles in MSRE, it's a disaster waiting to happen. The issues I refer to are exclusively with TSRE. Lately track pieces have a random tendency not to get saved to the TDB.

My TDB is running around 30+MB so yeah.......