Cumbres & Toltec Scenic RR

[derekmorton]

>A modeler by the name of Jared Singletary created an add-on pack for narrow gauge that included diverging route switches for both the points switches and the stub switches. Those have proven invaluable for >me in my narrow gauge route building. However, to my knowledge, he never got those new track pieces added to the T-section dat system, so all of my narrow gauge routes have to use a custom T-section dat >file. That means my narrow routes truly need a be lumped into a mini-install for MSTS. I do not know how Open Rails handles T-section dat files, so I can't comment on that.


Hi Andre,

If you can send me your special tsection, I can add the pieces to the standardised tsection, then the problem is over.

Derek

[ChandlerBranchRailfan]

I gotta ask, if this is the CTSR isn't there already one in the library?
ctsrrng1.zip - ctsrrng7.zip

[dcarleton]

I gotta ask, if this is the CTSR isn't there already one in the library?

You may want to re-read this thread from the beginning where Jerry details his reasons for taking on this project.

[ChandlerBranchRailfan]

You may want to re-read this thread from the beginning where Jerry details his reasons for taking on this project.

I see now. My apologies.

[landnrailroader]

The short answer is that, yes, there is such a route in the library. However, it is not the C&TSRR, instead it is the D&RGW as it was prior to 1968 when operations ceased and before the C&TS started in 1970, really 1971. The obvious issue is that the route in the library has NM/CO-17 as a gravel or dirt road, which it was and in most areas, just a single lane. During the rebuilding & pavinig of the new road in 1969/70 it was assumed that the track, especially in the "Narrows" was done, going to be pulled up. So when the volunteers moved equipment to Chama in 1970, one issue was removing rocks from the track, and replacing a few rails damaged by bulldozers etc. As a docent I would tell passengers that the retaining wall, now at that location, is almost the only non-1920 or older item, on the line. What I am doing is trying to create an accurate as possible 2025 C&TSRR. So it has a different name etc and as the structures in the library version are open source, I will "borrow" some of them - many were created by Ron Picardi. It will also be loaded up as "incomplete" because there are folks a lot better at scenery & terrain than me.

Jerry Sullivan

[landnrailroader]

No apology needed, I'm guilty of the same thing.

Jerry

[landnrailroader]

If Derek is able to do that, and if the modified file will work with other routes as well, I would use it to do some of the other things I want to do viz-a-viz the D&RGW. As we know, the Colorado Mega route that is in the library includes the line over Marshal Pass, and a fellow who was active a few years back on the Elvas Tower site was doing the rest of the San Juan extension, but I have seen nothing of that in years, so I have digitzed the rest of the San Juan Extension, the Farmington Branch, and the Chili Line. So I would use the modified file if it does not mess up existing routes.

Jerry Sullivan

[ChandlerBranchRailfan]

If Derek is able to do that, and if the modified file will work with other routes as well, I would use it to do some of the other things I want to do viz-a-viz the D&RGW. As we know, the Colorado Mega route that is in the library includes the line over Marshal Pass, and a fellow who was active a few years back on the Elvas Tower site was doing the rest of the San Juan extension, but I have seen nothing of that in years, so I have digitzed the rest of the San Juan Extension, the Farmington Branch, and the Chili Line. So I would use the modified file if it does not mess up existing routes.

Jerry Sullivan

Jerry, I'm surprised you didn't just use the existing trackwork, IIRC very little changed between the 60s and today.

[landnrailroader]

CBR,

I considered using the existing route and modifying - actually a lot has changed. However, I found that for one thing, the creator had lowered the terrain level by a few thousand feet which is necessary if the range of terrain gets above 10,000 feet or so, but the lowest point on the route is at either end, both being approx. 7,800 feet, so I experimented by creating the terrain & distant mountains and found that there were no anomalies in the terrain, at least not in the area of the railroad. Also a number of sidings have been removed such as Lava & BigHorn, and the worst part was that to include the loop at Osier would have required major realignment of track in the area. Although there are several folks who have spent their hobby lives focussed on the D&RG(W) the same as I have the L&N, and thus are fountains of esoteric data on the line, I have been over the whole real route 23 times, and 10 more over the part between Osier & Antonito. So the goal was to get the track as accurate as possible, given the limitations of existing narrow gauge track in the sim., and then roads as best as possible with the main highway now being paved.

So now, the track gang has moved further east and a buzzard (1970 drone) is gazing down at the track laid so far and wonders just what all this bowl of spaghetti is about. For one thing, the siding at Osier may have just paralled the main at standard spacing prior to the lunchroom construction here in 1989, but now, the passing track is spaced 20 feet or more to the side. I guess this is to provide a safe walking space when both trains are present, as they are for the last hour or so of the lunch break. One fellow that was more familiar then I of when things had changed etc. remarked that when the turning loop was built, there was miscalculation as to how much fill material would be needed (on the lower & lower left side as shown here) and so the curve on the loop is much sharper than originally planned. I got it pretty close with mostly 72m radius pieces, a few 90m radius, and one or two 150m radius but it looks smooth which was the requirement. On those occasions in 2020 when, because of the Covid and restrictions put on the railroad by NM, I worked out of Antonito and so when we got to this location, it was necessary to back the train around the look. Nothing bad happened but the train crew was r-e-a-l careful doing that move. Conversely, the engine that comes out of Chama is usually a coal burner and when it is, it will cut off from it's train and run around the loop. Then it waits for the WB train and when it arrives, the engine is cut off and back around the loop. Sort of a mechanical dance if you will that causes each engine to return to it's starting point with a different train set. This is because there has not been much snow or rain for more than a year and the high desert east of BigHorn is tender box dry, so an oil burner is better on the east end.
OSIER_01.jpg

Jerry

[landnrailroader]

One of the saddest places on the C&TS is at the curve, just east of Phantom Curve where you can see a tree temporarily marking the spot in the image. Here on a cold 1947 night, as the San Juan Express passed by, a slab avalanche slid down the slope above the track and removed all of the cars from the train except the engine, tender, and baggage/mail car. The coaches and the parlor car were carried several feet down the slope, into the canyon, and while equipment damage was severe, the only significant injury was to the conductor who got a broken arm. Then the ordeal really began. The only source of heat, on a night when the temperature got well below freezing was the baggage/mail car and the crewman on that car refused entrance (legally he had to) to the passengers, but someone produced "heat" and he changed his mind. A crewman walked through the cold for over a mile to the nearest phone booth and called in the issue. It was after midnight before a relief train arrived but in the end, nobody suffered unduly. So here is the spot. Places like this that I know of will have markers so whoever finishes the route can put a sign there if they wish. There is no formal marker there, but a drain pipe exits the down side of the fill at the spot and the docents will usually point out the spot. There is still a 75-100ft. bare path above and below the track where trees were uprooted by the slide, and I used this as my "marker" when volunteering as docent on the train.

Jerry SJEX_WRECK.jpg

[PerryPlatypus]

CBR,
...the creator had lowered the terrain level by a few thousand feet which is necessary if the range of terrain gets above 10,000 feet or so...

I assume that lowering is a MSTS legacy thing and is no longer "necessary" for an ORTS-only route built strictly in TSRE? I've worked a bit on a Tennessee Pass route and I did not notice any terrain anomalies around the summit.

[landnrailroader]

I guess that is correct. When I added terrain etc. to the Colorado Mega route, it was done in MSTS/RE and I used that when I added Marshal Pass to it and a few branches. Since the original creator had lowered the terrain, I had to do so as well but at least we knew how much to lower. I have created the new C&TS from scratch and there are no anomalies. I also used finer resolution data with DEMEX which I run on a old XP machine. I've noticed a number of details that the original creator of the (so called) original C&TS route had to add objects to create. For one there is a outcropping next to the track, out maybe 250 feet that appears to me to be the cooled lava core of an old cinder cone, but there is a lot of back and forth as to what this sort of orphan thing really is. Well in the original route it was done with a object, but in the route I have created it is very prominent in the terrain. I suspect that TSRE/ORTS uses a greater precision in numeric values than MSTS which would allow a greater range in height and while I have some experience with C++, I have no idea what goes on in the internals of these programs.

Jerry

[landnrailroader]

Our track gang has continued east and now we have laid track to the east end of Sublette siding. Sublette is just a collection of restored structures now, accessible only by the railroad or fair weather forest service roads (if you know the way). One of the structures that has been restored has what appear to be wiindows with curtains on them, and in one a cat is looking out and in another there is a dog. But vandals caused a change in tactics here so the windows are fake. Each window consists of a piece of plywood with the image painted on it, and then this is covered by enough plastic (Lexan I believe it is called) to stop a large calibre bullet. I am told, but cannot confirm, that a artist in Chama did the paintings. There is a very good artist there, who had a B&B until the end of the 2022 season but has now retired. One of the onboard service ladies for the train is also known to be a very good artist. In the days of the D&RG(W), Sublette was a small community consisting mainly of folks that maintained the track. It was a flag stop on the passenger trains and one tale I have read has it that the children would take the train into Antonito and attend school while staying with relatives or friends. Then on Saturday they would take the train back to Sublet and spend one night at home.

One issue that comes up is that we do not have double track pieces in NG except for a very few curves. So for the curve at Sublette, I used 90R pieces for the inner (i.e. main) track and then I was able to put a tiny tangent at one end of the places where I could use N2R150 pieces thus spacing the sidings 90R pieces out just a little. This works and there is continuity in the database links although there might be slight visual bumps in the shapes. Sublet is the last existing siding although once there was one at BigHorn.

Jerry SUBLET_01.jpg

[wwhall]

By the way, it's spelled Sublette. Also, there was a small community named San Miguel, down in the bottom of the Rio de Los Pinos valley below Sublette. Members of that community would sometimes walk up a side canyon (Cañon Atencio) to catch the passenger train to Alamosa (and points beyond) at Sublette. Several descendants of section gang workers who lived at Sublette and/or San Miguel worked for the Cumbres & Toltec for many years. I got to be friends with several of them over the years. At one time, there were section houses at Big Horn, Sublette, Toltec, Osier, and Cumbres. The ones at Big Horn and Toltec were gone before the C&TS era. There was also a water tank at Toltec. Down at San Miguel there is still a small Catholic Church that is maintained by the Catholic Parish from Conejos--services are held there a couple of times a year for special celebrations.

I also have to correct you again--there was no such train named the "San Juan Express" in the D&RG/D&RGW era. It was just the "San Juan." Prior, there was the Colorado-New Mexico Express. The incorrect "San Juan Express" name gets repeated constantly among railfans--it never existed.

[landnrailroader]

Yep, my bad. I'll have to remember that. Sublette sticks in my memory because on one of my first docent trips in 2019, we stopped there and a police vehicle was waiting - evidently they know how to get there. An unruly passenger was removed and went with the police. Don't know anything else about the incident but it sticks in the thinkus. Usually, there is several pieces of M/W equipment in the siding there and Sept. 26 & 28 this year was no exception. However the real M/W work was at Cumbres Pass where several ties had been replaced and the track smoothed. A work train, pulled by the new diesel was picking up the old ties and was also getting ballast. The C&TS has jointed rail, most of it now 90lb. but the M/W folks do a great job and you can hear the clickety clack of the joints but hardly feel anything. In the several years I have paid to ride or volunteered as a docent, there has to my knowledge been only one incident in which a passenger was injured. All I know about that is that it was some small child cutting up in the Osier dining hall and he fell backwards off the bench and whacked his head on the concrete floor. The only reasonable solution was to call in a helicopter and get him to the trauma center north of Antonito. Apparently no serious injury, but I bet the bill for the helicopter was serious. If someone gets sick on the train, once past Cumbres going east, or before Cumbres going west air lift is the only way. The highway is close at the upper end of Los Pinos but still not easy.