Open Rails VS Other Rail Simulators

[BrandonS261]

Thank you so much for you're input Shawn!

I completely agree with you!! In some areas I feel Open Rails is fantastic but in other areas it still seems like a game from the early 2000's We need to get more coders involved that are not just I want to focus on just this or I want to do this FOR MYSELF and completely leave out on what the community wants as a whole! I am sick and tired of Open Rails being a lame duck sort of speak. The physics, sounds, and a few other features are fantastic but the so called EYE CANDY is not there and never really has been.

I say at this point the Open Rails team is way too focused on keeping frame rates down as has been stated multiple times by them BUT we are in a time where Frame Rates should not be as big of a deal any more! Do we want to see Open Rails die a slow death or do we want to see it prosper for the future because right now it already is dying a slow painful death the way I see it.

I hate to say it but the Open Rails team really needs to think about some of these things before you loose all of your content creators, route builders and people who have stood by you all of these years and move onto other sims!

Do I see many new members on the forums here on Trainsim or Elvastower? My answer is no! Why would that be? Because the Open Rails management team has failed to realize they need to stop focusing on what THEY want to work on and work on stuff the community has been wanting and asking for years.

Yes we need more coders, but we also need the Open Rails team members to be more accepting to criticize and to listen to you're content creators and simmers who play the game regularly. We need leadership and we also need coders and members of the community to work together other wise Open Rails will never get to where its full potential could be at or an Open Rails for the future at all.

I myself have come close a few times to leaving all together but I have not yet because I still want to see Open Rails have a future but the way the Open Rails team has been acting the last few years I do not see a bright future for Open Rails. Sorry to be so blunt but it is the honest truth and we all know it!

I know I said I didn't want to bash the Open Rails team for everything they have done so far but it has come to the realization that they should be able to take a little criticism and accept that they are not always right on how they do things and should be criticized every once in awhile.

It seems like a few of them just say Go to Trello and put in a request THEN we will THINK about it and SEE if we want to work on it or not without really asking the community what they want to see or there advice on the matter. That is not how it should work. They should be interacting with the community, see what the community wants to see in the game and work TOGETHER on coding then ask for feedback from others in the community that play on a regular bases before incorporating it into the game as a feature.

I mean they put stuff in, take it out, put it back in then take it out and so on while the community then has to modify content, then FIX there broken content because it doesn't work right after they take it out then fix it again once it is put back in the game. I myself along with many others have had to do this countless times and it gets very aggravating with how much it happens.

I would like to end on a more positive note though and say that this is a fantastic community who has always been there to help each other out if we have questions, share photos or need advice on modeling/route building and I would hate to see it go away. We all love trains here and I some times have to remind myself that yes this is a hobby and yes the Open Rails team is doing this on there own time for FREE so I do feel very grateful for that. I however would like to see Open Rails team members reach out more with suggestions, feedback and helping with testing when it comes to the community.

Brandon

[gto451]

Sir may I suggest if you have such strong feelings you could help out and volunteer time to help code or see how to help with management of the program. The more people publicly complain and not be constructive it may well discourage active coders or people that would want to assist. Personally as a person that has no concept of coding is very grateful for what other have done to make me happy.

[BrandonS261]

I am very active in the Open Rails community building routes, models, creating sound sets, reskins and other things for the program. I have also helped out with testing of Open Rails features but here are a few questions I have going forward for everyone!

My three questions for the Developers is

#1 Why are you all not working together to accomplish a common goal?
#2 Why do we have so many different versions of Open Rails with so many different features in all of them?
#3 Why do we not just implement the best of the stuff that is implemented in all of the different versions into one single version and call that the main version?

This should have been done from the very beginning and now look at the mess we are all in. We have some versions with great features in one version and some great features in another version but they are not combined into a single version!

MSTS was implemented for ALL Languages not just one country or another so why is Open Rails any different? Just a few questions I have and seeing that some of the developers don't seem to even seem to know the differences between the versions are concerning. ALL of the coders from around the world should be working together to come to a common goal and make Open Rails a success for EVERYONE!! Not just one country or another.

Now I have a few questions for the users themselves.

#1 What do we want to see from Open Rails Development team?
#2 What would you like to see them work on the most?
#3 Should we come up with a specified testing TEAM that regularly plays the game and works with the developers to figure out bugs and help them out?

It would sure be nice to see us all work TOGETHER to get it done. Sure NONE of us are getting paid for it but we ALL want to see Open Rails prosper and the way it has been going is not working and something needs to change. We need leadership and a plan to move forward not just for the coders but also the Simulation as a whole.

It is quite obvious to me and many others that there is no leadership, no guidance and a free for all for years and it needs to stop before OR goes down in a flaming ball of fire never to get to its full potential. We will not get anywhere if the Development team and Simmers do not come to a mutual agreement on what we would like to see done with Open Rails. I myself would like to see it grow as a community and get the younger generations involved but at the rate it is going it wont happen.

I understand that things will not happen overnight and that not ALL demands will be met and can't be but we can at least try to work together all as a team for the whole community and to Make Open Rails a much better program for all of us to enjoy for the future!

I KNOW this is hard for some of you to take in and I am sorry for being so blunt but I am speaking the truth. I am not saying that I am not grateful for what has been accomplished with Open Rails I just feel it needs more guidance and leadership going forward. There have been a few of us that have tried and offered help but just seem to get push back when we do.

Going forward lets all try and work together for a common goal and try to build a groundwork for the future of Open Rails.

Brandon

[ossie]

#1 What do we want to see from Open Rails Development team?
#2 What would you like to see them work on the most?
#3 Should we come up with a specified testing TEAM that regularly plays the game and works with the developers to figure out bugs and help them out?

Brandon

Prior to answering those Brandon, something to keep in mind when we're using terms like "truth", "demands", "leadership", "agreement" etc is that if you take a sample of 100 of us in the community and ask us to define what those terms mean in relation to ORTS, you'll probably get at least 50 different interpretations. Not long after I joined this site there was discussion of a "community route" where a team of people were going to get together to co-build a route and (from memory) rolling stock for it. I'd become friendly with one of the "old timers" on the site who was quite skilled with building and modifying routes and when I asked him if he was going to get involved, he said IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN. And he was right. Each day I'd log in and check the thread and you'd see comments like "I couldn't possibly be involved if it wasn't steam era", "I couldn't possibly be involved if it wasn't set in the mid west", "I couldn't possibly be involved if it wasn't UP specific" etc, etc. After a few weeks it just fizzled out. While I understand the frustration with aspects of ORTS, I keep coming back to the question of whether we are expecting things from them that we aren't prepared to do ourselves. The work they've done has been amazing but I think it's understandable if what they are focussing on individually is specific areas of interest to them. You mentioned you build routes and models. I'd like a nice 70s era route running out of Melbourne to the South Australian border and all the rolling stock required. Will you build it for me?

#1 What do we want to see from Open Rails Development team?

Do you spend much time on ET? I don't but I know there is a lot more ORTS related discussion there with access to the devs etc that we don't have at TS.com. Given the amount of people still involved at this site, possibly some regular communications/updates from the ORTS team here would be good, but equally I would be surprised if direct/specific questions to the ORTS team posted at ET were being ignored.

#2 What would you like to see them work on the most?

I think a lot of us would like to see the lighting overhauled but I take on board Marek's comment earlier in the thread. The existing program may not have the capacity to do some of what we'd like without breaking it and/or our PCs. I'm not a programmer so I have no idea, but again, maybe these issues have already been asked and answered at ET or elsewhere. Do the ORTS team have an obligation to come here and tell us, or should we be reading/asking at ET or elsewhere?

#3 Should we come up with a specified testing TEAM that regularly plays the game and works with the developers to figure out bugs and help them out?

If this isn't already in place then I completely agree that it should be. I don't know how the ORTS team is structured or how they work, but if they don't already have some model & route builders and some real life railway workers as part of the "think tank" that would make a lot of sense to capture the "end user" aspects as they are discussing development.

I don't mean any of this to sound like a smackdown on you at all by the way. I fully understand where you are coming from and your desire to see the sim "future proofed". Hopefully I've still got another 20 or so years of simming left in me and if ORTS can continue to make advances that will make me very happy as well. Sure, I can come up with wishlists etc but the problem I have is not having a skill set that can help develop ORTS or that provides me with an understanding of what they do/don't do and why. From bits and pieces I've read, if someone was to put their hand up and say "hey, I have the time and skills to re-do the way the sim uses the skydomes" for instance, I'm sure they'd be welcomed with open arms.

Again, this may have already been discussed at ET, but I've wondered a few times about "fund raising". I've seen a table at ET or maybe the ORTS site that lists the costs per hour of programming (or something similar) and it's crossed my mind a few times whether that would be an option. If the ORTS team came out and said "we could fix the multiple light source issues for x dollars", would there be enough interest amongst the members of the sim community to donate the funds to do that?

Anyway, that's pie in the sky stuff because I just don't know enough about the day to day aspects of ORTS development. Again I don't mean this to be a criticism of your point of view as I completely understand where you are coming from and agree with your hopes to see ORTS continue to advance, but equally I try to put myself in the shoes of the developers and try to consider what sort of resourcing issues and programming hurdles they might be facing.

[BrandonS261]

I am very active over at ET as well and I have had some conversations with the development team but when it comes to coding I have tried to help them out and gone into the coding myself to try and figure it out along with looked up Youtube videos on how to code in C#. Now I am not the best at coding but do know my way around when it comes to Eng, Wag and SMS files. The developers seem to not want help, guidance or wanting to work together on specific items or even attempt to figure it out. That is why I have been so frustrated the last few years.

Yes they have made progress on a few items wanted overall but not really what the general public who play the game all the time wants. I am not saying it is all there fault as every game has limitations but it would sure be nice to have better communications on a few things between the developers and ones who play the simulator.

Yes I build models, routes and do other things for Open Rails on my own time and many people who just run the Simulator do not understand the work that goes into it and I am sure it is the same exact thing as coding for the game so I do get that point completely.

I just wish there was more of a mutual understanding in what the developers want and what the people who play the Simulator want. I have never said I wasn't grateful for what we do have so far as Open Rails is so much better then MSTS in most respects. MSTS still has the edge in a few aspects still but Open Rails has gotten a lot better over the years so I do give the Open Rails team props for that.

I would love to be more involved in the development of Open Rails but I am also limited because I do not know how to code in C#.

Brandon

[eric]

And now you understand why some people and communities forked the code and moved on.



Sent from my SM-S911U using Tapatalk

[superheatedsteam]

And now you understand why some people and communities forked the code and moved on.

You make it sound like Open Rails is open source software ;-) Given enough time the Open Rails forks will look like Linux distros.

Once I understood and came to terms with how open source software works, I gained an inner calm. I then focused on the things I could do and stopped trying to get other people to do things that they are never going to do.

Cheers,

Marek.

[JSMR]

I went from using ORTS to MG version (big improvement) to now using the CZ_SK OR version for my Australian routes. That one has so many cool features the others dont. Cant see myself going back to using the other versions now.

[amtrak115]

the CZ_SK OR version for my Australian routes. That one has so many cool features the others dont.

Can you elaborate on these "cool features"

[JSMR]

Download it and try it.

[landnrailroader]

I agree with some of you and not with some of you. IMHO any progression of ORTS needs to be backward compatible with objects & rolllingstock that was originally done for MSTS, and at the same time, it must support material of both varieties that IS NOT compatible with MSTS. I don't use MSTS anymore except to generate new routes, or work with DEMEX to generate terrain, and at 87, I'll probably not ever finish the routes I have now. TSRE is a seperate animal and the only gripe I have is the shaping of terrain. No matter what parameters I try, the roadbed generates at least twice as wide as it should. Mybe someone smarter than me can come up with a utility solely for shaping terrain. And today, I just noticed another issue. The small yard east of ST. Paul, VA on NS requires the use of 3 pieces of dynamic in order to conform to a M-track curve. What I noticed then when I shaped terrain is that the roadbed, instead of following the curve, a flat area encompassing a area running with the curve, on the outside, and along the chord of the curve on the inside was generated?. But with all the vagaries and potential improvements, I am grateful to the ORTS team, and to Eric for providing tools that work well, and Eric for keeping this website alive so we can bash each other, like each other, exchange data, etc., for without it, and others like it, the sim would have died 20 years ago.

Jerry Sullivan

[BrandonS261]

Having it be Open Sorce is a blessing and a curse I have come to realize. I again am very grateful for what the Open Rails coders have done over the years both past and present.

However it would sure be nice to make a list of the best features of all of the versions of OR and merge them all together into a even better version.

I am not saying we get rid of the other versions because everyone has different preferences but to me it doesn't make much sense to have 4 different versions of OR with different features in each one.

For the ones who have higher end computers it really isn't fair that we hold the Sim back from its true potential.

I mean we still need an activities editor and yes we have a route and consist editor but they are completely seperate from Open Rails its self.


Now I am not a coder myself but I do know my way around when it comes to making changes in the SMS files, Engine and Wagon files. I also build custom models, routes and also do repaints on occasions.

The reason I stay with Open Rails is because the ease to do all of that along with many of the add ons are free. We also have a great community throughout here and Trainsim.

I do know the old saying if you want something done you need to do it yourself. Now I should not be so harsh on the Developers but when we have 4 different versions going on of Open Rails with different aspects in each I just find it frustrating that they can't all work together to come up with a more advanced version of Open Rails with the best aspects in a single Simulator.

I guess that is where my frustration is the most and would love to help out more in the development of Open Rails.

I just feel like the Opem Rails development team is fractured and no longer working together like they used to in the beginning.

I hope this thread has opened people's eyes not only for the user but also the Developer and the need to take a step back and start working together again. Figure out a game plan and move on from there.

I do not think Open Rails should completely go away from MSTS content however it does make it more complicated and does throw a rench into the fire when it comes to advancing the Simulator into the next generation of gaming.

I really enjoy this community along with Open Rails as a whole. The progress that has been made over the years and how Open Rails has brought MSTS into a new light 25 years after it was created.



Brandon

[CSRX]

Having multi versions of ORTS is why I drifted into using TSW/TSC and Run8 far more often. While sure TSC and TSW have their many versions, you can at least carry the previous versions stuff over, but these aren't split up by individual people doing their own thing and making several versions. I don't even really understand why we went this way and not having a solid version that has all the features of each, in one.

This is personally, why I've stuck with ORTS 1.5.1, and barely touch 1.6 or the many other versions. Then, you run into the issue of, okay, so what if this file I release going to work in? Will it work in this version, or that version, will there be something I miss that someone else gets stuck on when trying to use my releases? Especially activities, which honestly even in 1.5.1, they seem to have various ending results or behave strangely. I've tested my routes and some equipment in the various ORTS installs, they work in some, and don't work in others without a tweak here and there, which then breaks it for the other versions. I know the weather version of orts, half my rolling stock didn't show up, and another version they show up as black boxes with red digital lettering all over them, but then in 1.5.1 they work fine, 1.6 they are missing...

I honestly hate saying it, but ORTS has become a mess with its various versions and developments and what not..

[eric]

It would be nice to get things under a more unified umbrella, but that ship sailed ages ago.

[dcarleton]

It would be nice to get things under a more unified umbrella, but that ship sailed ages ago.

Should there be a Trainsim.com version of OR? Starting with whichever version that this community decides is already the best, and the only changes allowed being improvements as suggested in these pages?