Proposed method to prevent camera shaking associated with end-of-train device

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  • Quacking Duck
    New Member
    • Dec 2024
    • 11
    • MSOR

    #1

    Proposed method to prevent camera shaking associated with end-of-train device

    The problem
    Sometimes, when using the "last car" external view (the one activated by pressing the "3" key), the camera shakes from side to side: it abruptly changes position and orientation horizontally. This is exceedingly annoying. I suspect that I am not the only person who has encountered this problem.

    I have determined that this only ever happens when my train has an end-of-train device. As far as I understand, in Open Rails, the end-of-train device is treated as though it were a car coupled behind the last real car of the train. Because of this, the "last car" view is attached to the end-of-train device, not to the last real car. Sometimes, perhaps especially when travelling along a curve, the end-of-train device abruptly changes its orientation in the horizontal plane of rotation. Because the camera is attached to it, the camera abruptly changes position and orientation along with it.

    Further evidence in support of this diagnosis of the problem is that I sometimes see the end-of-train device changing orientation when looking closely at it while travelling along a curve.

    My current workaround
    Typically, when this problem occurs, I manually switch the view to the real last car (the one preceding the end-of train device; from the perspective of Open Rails, the second-last car) by pressing alt-pageUp. However, when I leave the "last car" view and later return to it, the view becomes attached to the end-of-train device again, which means that the workaround must be repeated.

    The proposed solution
    I assume that it is not trivially easy to prevent this rotational behaviour of the end-of-train device, or to fundamentally change how end-of-train devices are represented in Open Rails, without severe losses of backward compatibility. I therefore propose a change which will hopefully eliminate this problem for most players without such costs.

    I propose that, if an end-of-train device is present, Open Rails should automatically attach the "last car" view to the real last car instead of the end-of-train device. This would essentially be an automated implementation of my workaround. As far as I understand, the backward compatibility risks of this solution should be minimal: no part of the simulation is changed by this, and it is very unlikely for any user to prefer the old behaviour. It should be relatively easy to implement this because, as far as I understand, end-of-train devices in Open Rails are a distinct type of object in the simulation, which means that the logic to identify them and prevent them from being the focus of a camera view should be simple.
  • oper190
    1000 Post Veteran



    • May 2010
    • 1498
    • Port Charlotte, FL
    • English
    • MSOR

    #2
    Originally posted by Quacking Duck
    However, when I leave the "last car" view and later return to it,
    Interesting. I do the same when having a EOT/FRED as last car, but have not seen that happen when returning after changing views nor after a save either.
    What ever car my "3" view is set to it remains there.
    ????
    Geary "Mr. Hart" Gerhardt - Owner and CEO of Hart Rail Lines, Hart Commuter Railways, and Hart Rail Cars. Also the defunct Hart Electric Transit.
    Its Your Train Sim World, sim as you please.

    Comment

    • johnnyboy99
      Senior Member


      • Nov 2014
      • 373
      • General

      #3
      MSTS/ORTS also has code in many old wag files where if the car is the last in the train there will be a flashing red light

      Comment

      • jkorienek
        Member

        • May 2010
        • 28
        • Wheaton, Illinois
        • MSOR

        #4
        Originally posted by oper190
        What ever car my "3" view is set to it remains there.
        Same results that I get for this problem.

        Comment

        • geepster775
          2500 Post Veteran


          • Sep 2006
          • 2846
          • .
          • General

          #5
          Sportscaster Warner Wolf: "Let's go to the videotape!"

          Geepster775: "We need more videos. Screenshots are such 'old technology'....."


          Anyone not seeing this is not patched up to current levels and is contributing obsolete experiences.

          No matter what railcar ahead that I adjust the rear camera upon, it always reverts to the absolute rear whenever the 3 key is pressed again.



          My Open Rails videos https://www.youtube.com/@lakecities3663/videos

          Comment

          • Whatever2006
            Senior Member

            • Aug 2022
            • 615
            • Philippines
            • English, Nonsensical Things and Passive Spitefulness.
            • General

            #6
            I noticed that particular issue while I'm using the current version the New Year Fork Version and V1.6 Release Candidate of Open Rails, I'm not the only one who experiences that annoying issue.....
            Motto: Loneliness stands by with me and my own isolation.

            Comment

            • derekmorton
              5500 Post Veteran



              • Nov 1999
              • 5699
              • Eltham, Victoria, Australia.
              • ORTS

              #7
              >No matter what railcar ahead that I adjust the rear camera upon, it always reverts to the absolute rear whenever the 3 key is pressed again.

              That problem has been reported, and will be looked at soon.

              Comment

              • oper190
                1000 Post Veteran



                • May 2010
                • 1498
                • Port Charlotte, FL
                • English
                • MSOR

                #8
                Originally posted by geepster775
                Version 1.4 was released close to 4 years ago.
                SO WHAT!!!
                Be happy in your world, if you can. I'm happy in mine.
                Berating helps no one.
                Geary "Mr. Hart" Gerhardt - Owner and CEO of Hart Rail Lines, Hart Commuter Railways, and Hart Rail Cars. Also the defunct Hart Electric Transit.
                Its Your Train Sim World, sim as you please.

                Comment

                • Quacking Duck
                  New Member
                  • Dec 2024
                  • 11
                  • MSOR

                  #9
                  In starting this thread, I did not intend to start an argument about versions of Open Rails. I hope that this argument will not continue to distract us from the work of understanding and fixing the technical problem which is the original subject of the thread.

                  Originally posted by geepster775
                  Now, even the wag-based EOT is only a few steps away from being obsoleted.
                  Does this mean that EOT devices will no longer be represented as a train car? Would this change ensure that the EOT device no longer rotates independently of the real last car or ensure that the camera can no longer be attached to the EOT device? If it has either of these effects, such a change would solve the problem. I had not seriously considered such a solution because I had assumed that such a fundamental change would break backward compatibility with many existing Open Rails consists.

                  Originally posted by derekmorton
                  That problem has been reported, and will be looked at soon.
                  As far as I understand, once this fix is implemented, my workaround would only have to be performed once, after which it would remain in effect for the rest of the game session. For my purposes, this would certainly be preferable to the current situation, and I look forward to the release of such an update. However, it would not fix the underlying problem. It seems quite plausible, for example, that a new user may become quite frustrated by the seemingly random jittering of the last car view camera, and may never realize that it is associated with the EOT device. I certainly took quite a long time to realize that myself.

                  As a short-to-medium-term measure before the supposedly expected obsolescence of "wag-based" EOT devices is implemented, can it be made impossible for external views to be attached to EOT devices?

                  Comment

                  • charland
                    3000 Post Veteran


                    • Dec 2006
                    • 3107
                    • Brockville, ON, CA
                    • General

                    #10
                    A few months ago I created an "invisible car" so I could have marker lights on the end of any passenger train. The activity started with the train at track speed. I saw the shaking camera syndrome. I discovered I could get the camera to act normal by closing the throttle and opening it back up. I don't have a FRED but wonder if this would have the same results.

                    Paul :-)

                    Comment

                    • derekmorton
                      5500 Post Veteran



                      • Nov 1999
                      • 5699
                      • Eltham, Victoria, Australia.
                      • ORTS

                      #11
                      There are multiple problems listed here.
                      This is the only one I am commenting on.

                      >No matter what railcar ahead that I adjust the rear camera upon, it always reverts to the absolute rear whenever the 3 key is pressed again.
                      That problem has been reported, and will be looked at soon.

                      Comment

                      • peterman
                        Senior Member

                        • May 2010
                        • 151
                        • Great White North
                        • ORTS

                        #12
                        I reckon that most of you pay no attention to the forums here. This is a file to a proper alternative in our file library. This has been in the file library for over a year and a half and works like a charm. You're welcome!

                        navs_eot_set1.zip
                        File ID 88366

                        Comment

                        • pschlik
                          Senior Member



                          • Jun 2011
                          • 289
                          • Missouri
                          • MSOR

                          #13
                          Even the new EOT implementation treats EOTs as a separate train car, just one that can be added or removed in real time. That still means it'll jitter around the tracks as every train car must follow the track, and an EOT is a "train car" but with a really short wheelbase (the short wheelbase causes the imperfections in track laying to be amplified). Frankly, it wouldn't be too crazy to set the location of an EOT type train car based on the location of the previous car instead of treating it as if it has wheels following the track. "Just" some linear algebra but 3D graphics is all linear algebra anyway.

                          Contributing to ORTS since 2023
                          Find me on GitHub @SteelFill

                          Like what I do? Join my Patreon to help me do more!

                          Comment

                          • eric
                            9500 Post Veteran and Administrator



                            • Dec 2002
                            • 9583
                            • NS MP245.4 CNO&TP South District
                            • English, SQL
                            • General

                            #14
                            Play nice folks.... the hotbox detector is flickering a bit with the tone of a few posts.
                            If you like what you see here at Trainsim.com, be it the discussions and knowledge in the forums, or items available in our library, I hope you'll consider a paid membership to help support keeping the site operating.... Thanks!

                            Comment

                            • kraus
                              1000 Post Veteran

                              • Jan 2001
                              • 1086
                              • Madison, Wisconsin
                              • General

                              #15
                              Does the wag file for your EOT have CouplingHasRigidConnection ( 1 )

                              This may reduce the jitter.

                              Another option is size occurs twice in the wag file:

                              Size ( 0.2m 1.4m 0.2m )

                              InertiaTensor ( Box ( 0.2m 1.4m 0.2m ) )

                              Try adjusting InertiaTensor which is for physics.
                              Last edited by kraus; 08-19-2025, 21:43.

                              Comment

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