TrainSimulations Seligman - Sharp Turns in 70mph Zones?

[Kuckoo]

Very happy with this route for the most part but there are some issues.

In some of the 70mph zones there are short radius turns that would be suicidal taken anywhere near that speed. Especially in areas between Seligman and Darling. These turns are, IMO, more suited for 30-ish, yet they're clearly in 70 zones. No slow-down signage and nothing on the monitor to indicate the condition.

Also there are abrupt doglegs on some of the straighter and flatter parts of the track, where a gentle sweep might be more appropriate, again in 70mph sections. In other areas there are long turns that are just a series of short straights connected by "elbows".

These occurrences don't dominate the route but there are enough of them where I often found myself going "what....?". Even keeping to ToB speed restrictions, these conditions seem unreasonable and kill immersion when they're encountered.

I'm no rail authority by any stretch but this even somewhat realistic? Some kind of limitation on Open Rails? Am I doing something wrong (I don't peg the speed limit even on intermodals)? Any thoughts?

Thanks.

[flanker]

Hi Phillipp, read this here: https://fobnr.org/wp-content/uploads...-03-022400.pdf

[SlackAction]

This definitely shows up in some routes. It typically isn't seen as much with quality content from vendors like SLI/TrainSimulations, but it still happens.

Unless you're willing to start re-laying track, you really have two options. Firstly, you could just ignore it. The fact that you posted about it suggests that you're having a hard time ignoring it (which is totally understandable). Alternatively, you could throw up an appropriate speed sign in the route editor at those spots. I did this once with an old MSTS route that had the same issue.

Keep in mind that the Seligman route is older and was built using MSTS tools.

[R. Steele]

...
I'm no rail authority by any stretch but this even somewhat realistic? Some kind of limitation on Open Rails? Am I doing something wrong (I don't peg the speed limit even on intermodals)? Any thoughts?
Thanks.

Many of these routes were created for MSTS, not Open Rails. Open Rails is backward compatible with the routes. While the payware MSTS routes are usually better made - more accurate as to grade, etc., the MSTS freeware routes are made with a wide variety of accuracy. I would be mindful not to judge OR by the legacy products it has been coded to accommodate. With regard to Open Rails ( AFAIK ) there is a bug in the Options\Simulation\Curve Dependent Speed Limit that has been reported.

With respect to the "slow down" signage, that would have been up to the original builders of the route to add. You could add a slow speed zone by using an activity editor .... there is a built-in one in Goku's TSRE http://koniec.org/tsre5/

[Kuckoo]

Keep in mind that the Seligman route is older and was built using MSTS tools.

Was mindful of this when I purchased the route at TrainSimulations, seeing that there were two versions of Seligman available. I got the newer BNSF version without the asterisk (*). The older one for '90s ATSF had the asterisk indicating it was made for MSTS and modified to run on Open Rails. Which leads one to infer the BNSF version was built specifically for OR. Still the same MSTS tools used in building both, I guess (?), since I've no clue what the specific differences are between the two.

I picked Seligman instead of Mullan at first because of its length, and for it's wide open desert terrain and high speed runs. But the kinks are hard to live with. Guess I'll have to learn about how to edit routes...

[SlackAction]

Was mindful of this when I purchased the route at TrainSimulations, seeing that there were two versions of Seligman available. I got the newer BNSF version without the asterisk (*). The older one for '90s ATSF had the asterisk indicating it was made for MSTS and modified to run on Open Rails. Which leads one to infer the BNSF version was built specifically for OR.

This is a fair point. For some reason I thought that both Seligman versions were strictly MSTS legacy. Even though it lacks the asterisk, I'm pretty sure it has its roots in the MSTS version.

Either way, it seems that the routes retailing at $29.99 are in a different league than the others.

[geepster775]

Like I said in the earlier thread, this is simply very early trackwork standards (2004-05) on display. Back when there were lots of people contributing content but very few had any actual design skills. With this route, it is especially noticeable on the segment comprising the Crookton Cutoff (E of Seligman to Williams Jct) that was built in the 1960s but ingame much of that segment looks like it was laid down in the 1860s. This route was built initially without Xtracks so the lack of a full compliment of track pieces is responsible for some curves being much sharper than they should. Without Xtracks, 2000r was tops, not the 6000r+ curves that Xtracks gave to builders.

The important takeaway is Open Rails is now beginning to 'fact check' the track geometry. It is now reporting operational failures when the timetable/speedpost says one thing and the track geometry was clearly designed for something else. So unless you want to impose speed restrictions where they should not exist per the timetable, builders need to aim higher with trackwork accuracy. No more stopgap fixes.


No more sweeping 50 mph curves constructed of switch end points laid head-to-toe (5d switch in this instance)





That 25 mile straight tangent needs to be straight, not turn from left to right to left to right like in the days of old....








Overshooting the curve

[geepster775]

Even though it lacks the asterisk, I'm pretty sure it has its roots in the MSTS version.

Either way, it seems that the routes retailing at $29.99 are in a different league than the others.

Exactly.


Pedigree of Seligman route


ATSF Seligman 1 for MSTS - Released 2005-ish. ABS signalling. Danny's flintstone wheel ATSF power. Activities and scenery from Needles to Seligman only. Track was laid all the way to Winslow, but no scenery or activities beyond Seligman.


ATSF Seligman 2 for MSTS - Released 2012. Still ABS signalling, still Danny's flintstone wheels, but high density scenery added all the way to Winslow. Scenery improved from Needles to Seligman


BNSF Seligman 2 for MSTS - Released 2012. Same route as ATSF Seligman but with CTC signalling and newer 2-piece, round wheel BNSF engines. 2-Piece shapes were necessary for MSTS limitations. Same scenery improvements as ATSF version. (Purchased as a $5 upgrade if you had ATSF Seligman 2, because the upgrade mined the terrtex folder from ATSF version)


BNSF Seligman 2 of ORTS - Released 2019. Minor track changes to expand the length of passing siding to enable same direction overtakes with high volume ORTS activities. Because of track database changes, old activities not playable on this version. Round wheel BNSF engines revised to create 1 piece shapes that were not playable in MSTS. GP40 replaced the GP60 from the MSTS versions. SD70ace added. Upgrade price if you owned MSTS Seligman 2 was $12.


Since then, BNSF Seligman 2 for MSTS has been pulled down as redundant in the post MSTS storefont.

[dcarleton]

Track was laid all the way to Winslow, but no scenery or activities beyond Seligman.

Did you ever get a chance to take a close look at the trackwork on the unfinished portion between Seligman and Winslow on the original release of Seligman? I do not recall seeing kinks in the track to the extent that they are found now on the current "finished" releases of Seligman. In fact, to my eye it appeared that the trackwork had been extensively redone. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. But if that really is the case, that's kind of strange, isn't it?

[R. Steele]

...
BNSF Seligman 2 of ORTS - Released 2019. ... old activities not playable on this version.

True, I took the time to fix all the paths and rework the activities, if needed...so they all can be repaired, if folks are of a mind to do it.
By the way...thanks for the history...I'm always amazed at how much you remember about all these routes. Informative screenshots on the track layouts.

[Kuckoo]

Hi Phillipp, read this here: https://fobnr.org/wp-content/uploads...-03-022400.pdf

DL'd and saved. Thanks for this resource.

[mikeebb]

Excellent resource; also downloaded it.

There's a free Seligman Sub in the f/l here (a Bob Wirth production iirc). The track seems to be very well done, but the surrounding scenery is kind of generic and a little too green (springtime doesn't last long in Arizona, and generic oak trees don't seem quite right). Trainsimulations does the surrounding scenery much better. And, obviously, none of the activities developed for the Trainsimulations routes will work.

[R. Steele]

Excellent resource; also downloaded it.

There's a free Seligman Sub in the f/l here (a Bob Wirth production iirc). The track seems to be very well done, but the surrounding scenery is kind of generic and a little too green (springtime doesn't last long in Arizona, and generic oak trees don't seem quite right). Trainsimulations does the surrounding scenery much better. And, obviously, none of the activities developed for the Trainsimulations routes will work.

While Mr. Wirth is very talented ( and accurate ) in laying track...hardly anyone better in the freeware MSTS routes...the scenery always takes second billing. In the western US desert routes, since scenery is so sparse to begin with, it's somewhat important to get enough scenery of the right type to convey that "sense of place" that completes the route.

If I ever take the time to learn TSRE ( or whatever RE may appear in the future ) I'll tackle one of Bob's excellent routes to develop the scenery...since the hard work of laying track is done so well.
To Bob Wirth for all the fine routes he has created for the community >>> HatTip.jpg

[CSXT Q-317]

I seen this too in some routes. The Pocahontas does not escape this either. I've thrown up speed restrictions in those segments until I can rework the area.

[kevhead]

Wow i used to say the same things and complain about this and that until I started working for and building stuff for a sim. The real world is round sim world is flat so, there has to be some compromise. Nobody is perfect. So make a sim so we can see what you can do. Good night and good luck.