Mullan Timetable consists??

[cn bala]

I just downloaded the zip file of ortsmullantimetable this morning and all set to go to run on the route with TrainSimulations Mullan Route but there aren't any train consists that are used for this timetable activity that Nate C created. I am not sure where are these train consists from and do I have to create them or Nate is supposed to have the train consists included in the zip file of ortsmullantimetable?

Thank you,

John

[ngc427]

I just downloaded the zip file of ortsmullantimetable this morning and all set to go to run on the route with TrainSimulations Mullan Route but there aren't any train consists that are used for this timetable activity that Nate C created. I am not sure where are these train consists from and do I have to create them or Nate is supposed to have the train consists included in the zip file of ortsmullantimetable?

Thank you,

John

Thanks for checking out the timetable,

The timetable uses the consists that come default with the route, as there is plenty of them and they're all unique. I didn't make or include any since it would be a waste of time and effort on my part, having to make consists even though there are consists for every train over the route already pre-made. I did say in the readme that "because the timetable uses default consists, you need to have all of the default consists files intact from the default install of the route for this timetable to work."
I'm not sure if newer/older purchases of the route from TrainSimulations have different consists, but I assumed they wouldn't have been changed so I decided to keep the timetable with the default consists.

If you're unable to get it to work with the default consists, or my fresh install of the route that I made the timetable on is a newer/older version with different consists, I will make a fix that will include new consists and a fixed timetable.

[cn bala]

Nate -- You don't need to create new consists as I found them in another folder which is not in TrainSimulations main folder. All is good to run but got the error message and will post my new message here.

Thank you,

John

[ngc427]

Hmm, interesting. I assumed that the route installed to the regular TrainSimulations folder like all the other routes, but I wasn't able to confirm since I install everything in their own installation profile folder to avoid running DRGW on Mullan Pass or vice versa, for example.
Are you using Open Rails Monogame? It's a known problem that it doesn't work in Monogame versions of Open Rails, and I'm not entirely sure why. The game tries to find a non-existant folder and I haven't been able to find what's causing the issue.

[derekmorton]

You don't make any sense to me?
If there is a bug MG, please post it?

Do you install every route in its own profile folder?

[ngc427]

You don't make any sense to me?
If there is a bug MG, please post it?

Do you install every route in its own profile folder?

At the bottom of the timetable modes I produce that I know will have errors in Monogame, I put "It is a known bug that it is broken in ORTS Monogame, and I am unsure how to fix this." The error that I get when trying to launch my timetable modes in Monogame is "An essential folder is missing and Open Rails Ultimate cannot continue. C:\ORTS Profiles\TSMullanPass\Routes\Routes\Activities\Wor ld". I assume it's looking for the *.timetable_or file in an incorrect location, and I have no idea why its trying to look through 2 routes folders to get there. It seems to me like its an issue with Monogame itself (or at least my install of it) because I get an identical error with timetable modes that weren't produced by me.

And yes, I do install every route in its own profile folder. My OCD acts up if I run something from, for example, the TS Seligman on the TS Mullan even though they both include basically the same rolling stock. It makes me uncomfortable when running things knowing the rolling stock installed in the same installation profile of the route wasn't directly made for it. I separate them into different profile folders with a naming standard to keep everything nice and organized, and I don't think it messes with anything when I go to make things like timetable modes or OR physics conversions and release them to the file library.

[R. Steele]

...The game tries to find a non-existant folder and I haven't been able to find what's causing the issue.

The only reason OR would try to find a non-existent folder is that somewhere you have a path string that is pointing to that folder...which presumably does not exist. OR doesn't make up folders and then goes looking for them...something in your setup is asking for resources at that location. ( could be something as simple as a missing space, spelling error, etc. )

[R. Steele]

At the bottom of the timetable modes I produce that I know will have errors in Monogame, I put "It is a known bug that it is broken in ORTS Monogame, and I am unsure how to fix this." The error that I get when trying to launch my timetable modes in Monogame is "An essential folder is missing and Open Rails Ultimate cannot continue. C:\ORTS Profiles\TSMullanPass\Routes\Routes\Activities\Wor ld". I assume it's looking for the *.timetable_or file in an incorrect location, and I have no idea why its trying to look through 2 routes folders to get there. It seems to me like its an issue with Monogame itself (or at least my install of it) because I get an identical error with timetable modes that weren't produced by me.

And yes, I do install every route in its own profile folder. My OCD acts up if I run something from, for example, the TS Seligman on the TS Mullan even though they both include basically the same rolling stock. It makes me uncomfortable when running things knowing the rolling stock installed in the same installation profile of the route wasn't directly made for it. I separate them into different profile folders with a naming standard to keep everything nice and organized, and I don't think it messes with anything when I go to make things like timetable modes or OR physics conversions and release them to the file library.

Nate...the trouble is not with OR MG or your install of it, it is how you've installed --- or probably mis-installed your content or the folder structures.
Nate in the bold underlined above it shows OR looking for a "World" folder in your activities folder --- there should NOT be a World folder in your activities folder. Also you'll have to try to conquer your OCD and follow install directions for TrainSimulations content which require their own GLOBAL and SOUND folders...install them any other way and problems could follow. ( unless you really know what you are doing...and are totally familiar with the folders and files being used. )

C:\ORTS Profiles\TSMullanPass\Routes\Routes\Activities\Wor ld

bandicam 2021-04-14 16-33-38-461.jpg<<<here's my install of Mullan...where the routes "World" folder is located. Show me a screenshot of the exact same thing in your setup...and also a screenshot of the contents of your "ACTIVITIES" folder.

***Note --- the space in the word "World" above is an artifact of the forums software.

[ngc427]

Show me a screenshot of the exact same thing in your setup...and also a screenshot of the contents of your "ACTIVITIES" folder.

activities.JPG

world.JPG

There are screenshots of my world and activities folder. I installed the route straight from the installer, just to a different directory from the default and haven't changed anything with it other than making & adding the timetable mode, so the only difference should be a different root folder name.

[geepster775]

Running the H-PASNTW, the run starts with a non-clearing jackpot at the shorty Avon siding. 2 EB's waiting on a WB that doesn't fit between switches, plus 2 more WB's queued at West and East Elliston unable to go farther. With all opposing traffic somewhere east of Garrison, player had the main all the way through Missoula.

Changing the EB and WB paths to eliminate passing paths at Avon, the sim started with the jackpot gone and all WBs were spread out west of Garrison. The first WB was approaching Bonner, so the player gets crossed over at DeSmet and runs out of track authority at the radio-controlled (non-signalled) crossovers at the west throat of Missoula yard, kinda sets up a passing loop west of yard and will not allow player to pass through yard area on north (siding?) track. I have doubts the 'dispatcher' as its currently coded is capable of recognizing long loop zones passing thru so many switch nodes along the way. Probably more suited to path them as one way current-of-traffic zones.

One other suggestion is don't start the paths quite so close to the end of track. The area is on a grade and trains roll backwards after entering sim and releasing brakes. By the time the GE's load up and start to pull, the train has rolled back and is soooo close to bouncing off the end of track 'bumper', which resets the physics to hard stop again. Cant throttle up too fast to 'lean on em' to avoid bounce off 'bumper' or you break knuckles.

[R. Steele]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]81523[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]81524[/ATTACH]

There are screenshots of my world and activities folder. I installed the route straight from the installer, just to a different directory from the default and haven't changed anything with it other than making & adding the timetable mode, so the only difference should be a different root folder name.

Well, everything looks correct...you'll have to do some detective work to find out where OR is getting this path >>>

C:\ORTS Profiles\TSMullanPass\Routes\Routes\Activities\Wor ld

next time it happens...PM me a log.

[ngc427]

Running the H-PASNTW, the run starts with a non-clearing jackpot at the shorty Avon siding. 2 EB's waiting on a WB that doesn't fit between switches, plus 2 more WB's queued at West and East Elliston unable to go farther. With all opposing traffic somewhere east of Garrison, player had the main all the way through Missoula.

Changing the EB and WB paths to eliminate passing paths at Avon, the sim started with the jackpot gone and all WBs were spread out west of Garrison. The first WB was approaching Bonner, so the player gets crossed over at DeSmet and runs out of track authority at the radio-controlled (non-signalled) crossovers at the west throat of Missoula yard, kinda sets up a passing loop west of yard and will not allow player to pass through yard area on north (siding?) track. I have doubts the 'dispatcher' as its currently coded is capable of recognizing long loop zones passing thru so many switch nodes along the way. Probably more suited to path them as one way current-of-traffic zones.

One other suggestion is don't start the paths quite so close to the end of track. The area is on a grade and trains roll backwards after entering sim and releasing brakes. By the time the GE's load up and start to pull, the train has rolled back and is soooo close to bouncing off the end of track 'bumper', which resets the physics to hard stop again. Cant throttle up too fast to 'lean on em' to avoid bounce off 'bumper' or you break knuckles.

Thank you for the traffic jam report and suggestion. I'll get a fix for the timetable out sometime later tomorrow and give the route another shakedown to make sure that it runs smoothly.

Well, everything looks correct...you'll have to do some detective work to find out where OR is getting this path >>> next time it happens...PM me a log.

Once I get the patch underway I'll investigate the file path issue shortly after and get back to you with a log file. I have a few ideas of what could possibly be going wrong and I'll see if I can get them sorted out.

[PerryPlatypus]

Running the H-PASNTW, the run starts with a non-clearing jackpot at the shorty Avon siding. 2 EB's waiting on a WB that doesn't fit between switches, plus 2 more WB's queued at West and East Elliston unable to go farther. With all opposing traffic somewhere east of Garrison, player had the main all the way through Missoula.

Changing the EB and WB paths to eliminate passing paths at Avon, the sim started with the jackpot gone and all WBs were spread out west of Garrison. The first WB was approaching Bonner, so the player gets crossed over at DeSmet and runs out of track authority at the radio-controlled (non-signalled) crossovers at the west throat of Missoula yard, kinda sets up a passing loop west of yard and will not allow player to pass through yard area on north (siding?) track. I have doubts the 'dispatcher' as its currently coded is capable of recognizing long loop zones passing thru so many switch nodes along the way. Probably more suited to path them as one way current-of-traffic zones.

One other suggestion is don't start the paths quite so close to the end of track. The area is on a grade and trains roll backwards after entering sim and releasing brakes. By the time the GE's load up and start to pull, the train has rolled back and is soooo close to bouncing off the end of track 'bumper', which resets the physics to hard stop again. Cant throttle up too fast to 'lean on em' to avoid bounce off 'bumper' or you break knuckles.

Avon strikes again... I have run into numerous problems with this siding. I had once leaned too hard on the statement in the OR Manual that indicates train lengths are taken into account by the OR dispatcher in setting up meets... I think if you have the very simplest situation - one westbound and one eastbound, and no other trains on the route - then the sim is smart enough to hold trains back at a longer siding. But it appears that the OR dispatcher is incapable of planning "far enough" ahead, i.e. looking not just at the immediate impending meet, but on 1, 2, even 3 trains out to identify potential non-fitter situations. In addition to that, the OR dispatcher is not smart enough to realize that if it sets up a meet between, for example, an EB fitter and a WB non-fitter, that it cannot send a 2nd EB train behind the 1st unless there is sufficient clear length and signal permissions for the 2nd east to be able to squeeze in behind the 1st.

Long story short - With the current intelligence of the OR dispatcher, a timetable mode is going to be extremely difficult to manage on this type of route unless you set passing paths to be at ONLY locations where the longest trains can both clear. That's nearly impossible if you have a double-length empty grainer in the mix since they are non-fitting at a large proportion of the sidings on the Mullan route. For the sake of reducing the number of issues, you may be forced to not include any double empties in the timetable (the 230 car empty grain consist), and providing at least an hour of spacing between any trains in the same direction (and probably eliminate Avon as a passing location, as Geepster did.)

More to the original topic of the thread: ngc, let me know if you ever want to develop a bit more realistic timetable. I have a word doc that I wrote up describing in detail the train symbols and their daily frequency. The symbols seen in the default Mullan consists are only a fraction of all the symbols that traverse MRL...

[ngc427]

Long story short - With the current intelligence of the OR dispatcher, a timetable mode is going to be extremely difficult to manage on this type of route unless you set passing paths to be at ONLY locations where the longest trains can both clear. That's nearly impossible if you have a double-length empty grainer in the mix since they are non-fitting at a large proportion of the sidings on the Mullan route. For the sake of reducing the number of issues, you may be forced to not include any double empties in the timetable (the 230 car empty grain consist), and providing at least an hour of spacing between any trains in the same direction (and probably eliminate Avon as a passing location, as Geepster did.)

More to the original topic of the thread: ngc, let me know if you ever want to develop a bit more realistic timetable. I have a word doc that I wrote up describing in detail the train symbols and their daily frequency. The symbols seen in the default Mullan consists are only a fraction of all the symbols that traverse MRL...

Thank you for the feedback as well.
I'm willing to get the timetable as prototypical as possible and if you don't mind sending the word doc my email and PMs are open. I try to get as accurate as possible with my timetable modes though research that I do, but sometimes it falls short of the real operations because of the scarcity of information out there about smaller railroad operations without knowing anyone who works at the railroad. I'll most likely issue the new version of the timetable with expanded train symbols with the rest of the fixes to the path files sometime later this week.

[geepster775]

There is no rush for fixes, let folks poke around a bit more.

I also tried to run the empty coke train U-RBOLAU, it was 3rd in a parade of 3 trains leaving Missoula eastbound with MISLAU leading and the Q-SSEATL in the middle. With close spacing I was beginning to see some of the same faults that we saw years ago when running the Rockslide activity for SLI Feather River. In that activity, you were third behind 2 other AIs, the first AI got away, the second AI immediately ahead of you had an emergency stop, during which the player pulled up right behind its caboose. When the stopped AI finally got moving and cleared the next siding interlocking, the dispatcher routed the player train in and out of the siding needlessly. The AI ahead was still moving in between the two switches, and the dispatcher saw the siding as the clearer track over a (everso slightly) greater distance and sent the player on that routing instead. So the player ended up going into and out of sidings with no opposing trains to meet.

For some reason, the stack train ahead of the player kept to the main at Bonner, but got routed through the derail-equipped McQuarrie storage siding (a ballast train holding siding, no power switches) which slowed its progress down, which resulted in the player's empty coke train getting sent into Bonner CTC siding to meet nobody. I don't know why McQuarrie siding (adjacent to a rock quarry) would have a passing path set for it, it shouldn't, its not a CTC siding used for meets. Are there other storage sidings set up with passing paths in error like that?

And I was a bit wrong earlier, there really aren't two main tracks (or main/siding) skirting the south side of Missoula yard, there is only one, along with some type of running track that starts about halfway, so the best you can do is have a quasi-passing loop on both the west side and east side. If you are not on the main, you end up going straight into the yard on the other track. I don't know how many BNSF trains run through vs actually get yarded waiting on a crew, but maybe we are trying to shove thru too many non-stops than the track layout is actually designed to handle.