Zero Degree Node Removal for OR?

[R. Steele]

Has anyone using TSRE come up with a method for removing the outdated Zero nodes used in msts?
Alternatively, could it be coded into OR to ignore these nodes for AI traffic and not display them in the track monitor?

[ebnertra000]

You would have to remove them the same way you would any other track piece: remove all interactives as far as the next switch node or end-of-track in either direction, and then remove the 0° node, replacing it with ordinary track pieces to span the gap. Many were 3.5m in length, I think, but that could vary by design used

[R. Steele]

You would have to remove them the same way you would any other track piece: remove all interactives as far as the next switch node or end-of-track in either direction, and then remove the 0° node, replacing it with ordinary track pieces to span the gap. Many were 3.5m in length, I think, but that could vary by design used

Thanks Travis, but not being a route builder your explanation is incomprehensible to me...it is just a pointer to a long learning curve that I'm not sure I want to start at this time. I was looking for a 1.) do this or push this button 2.) then do this or choose this menu item...and honestly what I'm asking is too much. Maybe it could be coded into OR to at least have the AI traffic ignore these zero node points?

I'll keep your explanation for reference and try to figure it out, unless someone else happens along with the magic spell I'm asking for.

[eric]

Its not a simple removal. You have to remove signals and other interactives on the track nodes immediately surrounding the zero node. On a route where the ZN was used to deal with a long stretch of track and Cutback Syndrome, that could be 10-20 miles of track needing to be modified.

Sent from my SM-T290 using Tapatalk

[R. Steele]

Its not a simple removal. You have to remove signals and other interactives on the track nodes immediately surrounding the zero node. On a route where the ZN was used to deal with a long stretch of track and Cutback Syndrome, that could be 10-20 miles of track needing to be modified.

Sent from my SM-T290 using Tapatalk

Wouldn't the zero node have some sort of mathematical, or code identifier that OR could use to tell AI traffic to ignore when loading the AI path, there can be AI traffic jams because of the nodes. Does the fact that interactives are involved complicate the problem to the point that coding OR could not adequately address it?

[baldwin]

A zero node is in effect a very very short passing siding which is why the AI can get tangled up in OR. Replacement with plain track is the only solution for the problem.

[eric]

Wouldn't the zero node have some sort of mathematical, or code identifier that OR could use to tell AI traffic to ignore when loading the AI path, there can be AI traffic jams because of the nodes. Does the fact that interactives are involved complicate the problem to the point that coding OR could not adequately address it?

It's a switch. That's all ORTS sees.

You might be able to hard code the section IDX for zero nodes into ORTS to ignore, but that just adds overhead processing that wouldn't be used very often.


Unless you've defined a passing path I don't know how it would be picked up as one for AI. The paths are less than 20m long for Scalerail, and even shorter with XTracks. I'd think the chances of having a path conflict would be very low.

[R. Steele]

....
Unless you've defined a passing path I don't know how it would be picked up as one for AI. The paths are less than 20m long for Scalerail, and even shorter with XTracks. I'd think the chances of having a path conflict would be very low.

In the threads, here and at ET, there does seem to be some consensus forming that the zero nodes are interfering with AI traffic paths in OR. Will have to read more about this. Thank you for the reply.

[slipperman]

Hi All,
I'll say, right at the start that I am not a route builder and, although I know why zero nodes were introduced, I don't know their impact on interactives. I don't know if I've ever used a route which has them - I don't think most UK routes have the extreme lengths of plain track which makes them a necessity! I'm sure people much cleverer than I am have been, or are, looking into this problem, but I wonder if I could ask a few questions, please?

When driving a train, I understand that the Track Monitor displays the 'zero node'; how does it appear, visually, on the track, to the player? Does it look like a catch-point (sorry, I don't know the North American terminology!)? Or is it invisible? If it's invisible, how is it different to a catch-point?

Obviously, I could find out the answers for myself, if I knew where to look!! Do any of the default routes contain zero nodes? Please let me know of a route and the approximate Lat/Lon of a zero node.

Thanks
Cheers,
Ged

[R. Steele]

Hi All...When driving a train, I understand that the Track Monitor displays the 'zero node'; how does it appear, visually, on the track, to the player? Does it look like a catch-point (sorry, I don't know the North American terminology!)? Or is it invisible? If it's invisible, how is it different to a catch-point?

Obviously, I could find out the answers for myself, if I knew where to look!! Do any of the default routes contain zero nodes? Please let me know of a route and the approximate Lat/Lon of a zero node.

Thanks
Cheers,
Ged

Ged, it appears on the track monitor as a switch. When I first started using OR I would slow down thinking I had to take a siding -- no siding would appear.

bandicam 2021-03-22 13-13-43-498.jpg

[niknak]

Ahhh so THAT'S why there's 2 or 3 occasions on the BNSF Scenic route where a switch appears on the monitor and also (although not always) on the separate switch window but then no siding appears. It also triggers Carlo's DemoAutoSounds switch sound.

[geepster775]

https://www.msts.steam4me.net/tutorials/xtracks_zero_node.html

Basically you are building a small 1m long passing loop. The two 'invisible switches' go face to face and a small 1m track piece fills the siding gap and completes the passing loop (so trains can pass through either route, normal or reversed).

Some route builders would just insert one switch but it would function more like a hidden derail, only the normalized position would allow a train to pass through, reversed position would derail/bumper post the train.

[R. Steele]

https://www.msts.steam4me.net/tutori...zero_node.html

Basically you are building a small 1m long passing loop. The two 'invisible switches' go face to face and a small 1m track piece fills the siding gap and completes the passing loop (so trains can pass through either route, normal or reversed).

Some route builders would just insert one switch but it would function more like a hidden derail, only the normalized position would allow a train to pass through, reversed position would derail/bumper post the train.

I just read Yuri's zero node tutorial and my understanding is that this type of node hack-modification would leave a unique signature somewhere in the files...track database? If so, it should then be possible to tell OR to ignore that specific signature. OF course, considering my utter ignorance of track/route construction and OR code...I may be talking through my hat.

[eric]

There's really nothing unique.

Node A ends, Nodes B and C begin and end, Node D begins. All four nodes will have the same components, the only thing unique would be the trackshape/index of the zero nodes, and hardcoding based on that alone isn't foolproof because someone may have used the A1tPnt1mStrt.s with a curve to create a switch without animated points.

[dcarleton]

My experience has been that OR is aware of the position of each train on a node-by-node basis. The presence of zero-degree loops foreshortens the distance between useable nodes and can confuse the dispatcher as to if it is appropriate to clear a track for movement. This is true even if all of the paths follow the same exact route through the zero-degree loops, and even if "location-linked passing path processing" is activated. OR sees turnouts, therefore it sees the possibility of diverging tracks, therefore it diligently tries to route the traffic accordingly. The dispatcher has an important job to do -- Don't blame the dispatcher!