ORTS Steam locomotive injectors

[Shortliner]

I notice that in ORTS, the injectors of the steam locomotives is INJ 1 and INJ 2. Does the simulation recognize any difference between the two injectors or do they perform the same functions?

[R. Steele]

If you are a member at ET, just search the OR part of the forum using "steam injectors" -- plenty of threads...you'll probably find an answer.
I have no good answer, steam novice ( and that's giving myself more credit than due )

[Vince]

In the Open Rails Manual you'll see this:

• Injectors (named Injectors1FX and Injectors2FX) – represents the steam discharge from the steam
overflow pipe of the injectors. They will appear whenever the respective injectors operate.

There's more but I'll leave the reading to you.

regards,

[baldwin]

Steam locomotive injectors have but one function, to inject water from the tender or tank into the boiler, generally there are two of them. One is normally sufficient to maintain a certain water level in the boiler, but on occasion there is need for the second one to run when demand for steam is higher.

There are live steam injectors and exhaust steam injectors, both can be of one type or one of each.

[scottb613]

ORTS Steam locomotive injectors

Hi Folks,

@Baldwin - please correct me if I’m wrong - unlike the MSTS injectors - you could replicate if the water going to the boiler passed through a feed water heater - where ORTS doesn’t offer that option - it assumes a feedwater heater is present on both injectors ? There’s no way to currently replicate cold tender water and the dramatic impact on steam production - it should have ?

In MSTS - I'm pretty sure I had my Mountain setup where one injector had a far more severe penalty on steam production than the other - only one passed through the feedwater heater - this was done when Bill Hobbs was still around and it was mostly his ENG file... In ORTS there seems to be no difference between using injector 1 or injector 2...

Regards,
Scott


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Shortliner]

Hi Folks,

@Baldwin - please correct me if I’m wrong - unlike the MSTS injectors - you could replicate if the water going to the boiler passed through a feed water heater - where ORTS doesn’t offer that option - it assumes a feedwater heater is present on both injectors ? There’s no way to currently replicate cold tender water and the dramatic impact on steam production - it should have ?

In MSTS - I'm pretty sure I had my Mountain setup where one injector had a far more severe penalty on steam production than the other - only one passed through the feedwater heater - this was done when Bill Hobbs was still around and it was mostly his ENG file... In ORTS there seems to be no difference between using injector 1 or injector 2...

Regards,
Scott


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This is what I'm trying to figure out, does ORTS simulate one injector feeding from the tender & the other one feeding from the exhaust?

[scottb613]

Hi...

Yeah - I’ve spent a great deal of time creating ORTS Steam ENG files along with the locomotive models that go with them - I’ve also spent a great deal of testing and hand firing locomotives - lol - it’s what I do - I’ve read just about everything on Peter’s fantastic “Coals To Newcastle” site which definitively documents much of what’s been done in ORTS... Peter created the code for much of the Steam Physics model...

http://www.coalstonewcastle.com.au/

To the best of my knowledge - the ORTS Steam Model has been substantially simplified from the old MSTS model - in an attempt to simplify it for the masses and to only include fully documentable truths... If you go through the site - you’d be truly surprised at how few parameters we used in MSTS are actually used by ORTS...

I’ll defer to Baldwin’s greater knowledge about this as he’s helped me a great deal...

There are no real controls used in ORTS to manage the injectors... It’s all built into the ORTS source - and both injectors are treated the same...

Regards,
Scott



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[scottb613]

ORTS Steam locomotive injectors

This is what I'm trying to figure out, does ORTS simulate one injector feeding from the tender & the other one feeding from the exhaust?

Hi...

Here’s the section - distilled down to only parameters used by ORTS - involving the boiler, fire, and steam production - this is it - note no injector settings... All the other traditional MSTS settings are ignored and anything else needed is in the source code for ORTS...

Comment ( ########## ENGINE SECTION ########## )
Engine ( 280consolidation 
        Wagon ( 280consolidation ) 
        Type ( Steam )  
        ORTSSteamLocomotiveType ( Simple )
        ORTSDriveWheelWeight ( 283800lb  )
        IsTenderRequired ( 1 ) 
        WheelRadius ( 0.775m )
        NumWheels ( 4 ) 

Comment ( ##### ORTS BOILER -20% ##### )
        ORTSSteamBoilerType ( Superheated )
        ORTSEvaporationArea ( "2885.6*(ft^2)" )
        ORTSSuperheatArea ( "739.2*(ft^2)" )
        MaxBoilerPressure ( 220psi )
        BoilerVolume ( "533.2*(ft^3)" )

Comment ( ##### ORTS BOILER - ADVANCED ##### )  
Comment ( ORTSBoilerEvaporationRate ( 10 ) )

Comment ( ##### ORTS CYLINDER ##### )
        NumCylinders ( 2 )
        CylinderDiameter ( 27in )       
        CylinderStroke ( 32in ) 
        ORTSCylinderEfficiencyRate ( 1.0 )
        
Comment ( ##### ORTS FIRE -20% ##### )
        ORTSFuelCalorific ( 12500btu/lb )
        ORTSGrateArea ( "80.0*(ft^2)" )

Comment ( ##### ORTS FUEL ##### )
        MaxTenderCoalMass ( 32000lb ) 
        MaxTenderWaterMass ( 125000lb )
        ORTSSteamFiremanMaxPossibleFiringRate ( 12000 lb/h )
        SteamFiremanIsMechanicalStoker ( 1.0 )

Regards,
Scott


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[baldwin]

The current injector model for Open Rails is very simplified, live steam only, size automatically calculated dependent on other engine parameters, and operation calculated from a table within the compiled executive when in auto fireman mode. The usual MSTS keys are available in manual mode.

There is a penalty heat loss for using them, but the effect is minimal on large locomotives. One thing, do not let pressure drop too far, the injectors cease to work when pressure is low enough.

[scottb613]

ORTS Steam locomotive injectors

Hi Baldwin,

Thanks for the update - a topic I dearly love - while the advanced physics calculations and coding are above my pay grade - I truly hope we add back some more control to the ORTS Steam Physics model at some point...

Accessibility for the masses is a good thing - but - having power/control to tailor the model for the multitude of unique requirements we’ve seen in the Steam Era is a good thing also - and - we shouldn’t really lose capability we had in MSTS...

Just my two cents - please take it for what it’s worth...

Regards,
Scott



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Shortliner]

One of the reasons I love running steam locomotives in train simulators is the system management that you have to do to keep the locomotive running. It's definitely more involved, which keeps me engaged.

[steamer_ctn]

Based upon my understanding of the operation of injectors, they were "simplified" in the OR code for the following reasons:

i) Most people seem to use the AI fireman, so I didn't see the value in trying to model a variety of injector models. As pointed out they impact the heat in the boiler, loose effectiveness as the pressure drops, etc, so the current AI code attempts to to place some "restrictions" on the driver to simulate a form of working relationship with a fireman, however it will never be as good as using an independent "live" fireman. Perhaps extensive use of the manual fireman might change this approach.

ii) Finding sufficient data to model different injector types is quite difficult, and I think beyond the level of interest of most users. However perhaps one approach would be to build up a library of appropriate injector models that users could select from. This would require some researchers to find the relevant information required to build these models.

If there is sufficient interest I would be happy to look at this, however it would require quite detailed specification information about the injector, rather then just a broad generic description of its operation.

For example to specify the injector we would require at least the following:

i) Flow rate of the injector vs injector pressure
ii) Output water temp - based upon the input water temperature and the steam heating applied
iii) Steam consumption based upon water heating and water input, etc

It would be possible to create a "cold water" injector where it feed out of the tender at ambient temperature (ie no heating at all) but this I believe would create problems with the AI fireman as he/she isn't smart enough to work out the best combination of injectors.

It should also be remembered that some level of heating is applied simply by mixing steam with the water to push it from the tender into the boiler, so in theory it will never be at the same temperature as the tender water.