Open Rails in Linux

[mikeebb]

All good points, Eric. Except: Windows NT was designed from the very beginning (some time in the 1990s, when it evolved from OS/2 after IBM went its own way) as modular and able to run on different hardware. All you need to do, in principle, is swap out a HAL file that provides the low-level hardware interface. For many gory details see: http://www.geoffchappell.com/studies...tory/index.htm and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archit..._of_Windows_NT. If Kaby Lake were as different as MS wants to say it is, all that would be needed to run the older OS versions is a new HAL to drop into them. Says the one who doesn't have to code it ... but if KL is really just a minor tweak of Skylake, as seems to be the case, then that shouldn't be difficult. The main reason for doing the cutoff is marketing - another opportunity to force people into Win10, with its difficult (not impossible) to control data gathering and occasional (so far) advertising. MS isn't handling that particular transition very well, but as you say, MS marketing & legal don't have a good reputation. But don't blame it on difficult technical issues; it's corporate preference not a technical problem.

As far as Open Rails is concerned, it's agnostic as to which version of Windows it's on, as long as it can find the final DX9, XNA 3.1, and .NET 3.5SP1 where they're supposed to be in the system. That's a Good Thing in a time of constant change to Windows; it's tolerant of new hardware & Windows versions as long as the standard APIs are there. So OS preference is, for now at least, a side issue for it wrt Windows. Having it finally work on Linux, even if only via a kind of hacking, is a bonus and provides a side channel for those who don't want to (or can't, for an assortment of reasons) use Windows. In the long run, it will be better for OR if it can more easily support Linux, and even Mac, to spread its use beyond Windows. Hey, why not even Android (which is based on Linux), some day, so we can play it on phones & tablets? Or Steam - though that would mean moving away from open source, probably.

[EricF]

WRT to the NT kernel, Microsoft unfortunately pulled off in their own direction, while processor technology headed in another. They tried building a modular OS kernel that could be configured for Intel, PowerPC or Alpha platforms. For better or for worse, Intel won out, but I suspect Intel's architectural thrashing about through the early Pentium era and difficult transition to 64-bit architecture didn't help. Intel went through a number of false starts, which diluted a lot of Microsoft's efforts. The NT family was always modular at the low level, but its user environment got messy. Win10 is supposed to offer the same kind of building-block approach to the UI layers. We'll see... On the good side, it's capable of running a Linux subsystem, sort of the ultimate development of the POSIX-compliant aspect of NT4. They once said that would never come back, but here it is in a new guise!

I agree that cutting off on Kaby Lake seems awfully arbitrary. It might have been better to do so on the next complete generation, not an interim version. Although there's some concern that, at least for Intel, Moore's Law is falling by the wayside and processor advances are coming more slowly. So maybe they wanted to draw the line now rather than in two years, then three, then four, as a moving target.

Steam's "Steam Machine" platform is Linux-based -- yet another case where Linux is more than capable of doing things that naysayers claim it can't. The uphill battle for the Steam Machine platform is in convincing hardware OEMs to build products with decent specs, and for more games to offer more Linux-friendly Vulkan (OpenGL) support. It ought to get easier now that .net is open-sourced; so cross-compiling may become a reality. But Vulkan is, hopefully, going to be a big deal as a common graphics API which could allow for more Windows/Linux equivalence in games.

[mikeebb]

Another point - I've been seeing more comments suggesting that MS might have violated something. Not that they can't get around that with a little legalese, but their published support lifecycle policy in fact doesn't place any limits on what hardware you're running. W7SP1 is supposed to get security updates until 2020, period (W8.1 a bit longer). So cutting off security updates if you install W7 on Kaby Lake (where it technically should work, even without new chipset drivers) seems a little questionable. OTOH, they could just issue a new Terms of Service/Support Lifecycle Policy applying to all versions of Windows that resembles 10: support lifecycle is indefinite, but ends when MS decides that you have reached the end of life for your system. Yes, they can change things any time they want to, and the user has no ability to question it (other than moving to a different system). Outside of enterprises perhaps, you and they didn't sign a mutually binding contract; the terms can be changed at MS' whim.

Anyway, enough of the conspiracy speculation. Windows is a great source for that, but it's ultimately not productive. Current OR works in Windows XP and up without any special tweaks, and has now been shown to work in Linux as well though with a few tweaks. That's a Good Thing. A future OR might not support XP/Vista any more, depending on what happens with the underlying platform (DirectX version, XNA or other framework, .Net version, or some combination of those), but there's no obvious sign of that happening yet.

Even Firefox has now scheduled termination of XP support (fall 2017), so those still using it will no longer have a mainstream supported browser soon (Chrome & IE dropped XP a long time ago). Not much else in the way of current software (outside of OR and Avast) still supports XP. That's not XP Hate; it's just the facts.

[shadowmane]

Wow, lots of vitriol since I last posted on this thread. I'm going another route here. I've installed Monogame on my Linux box and will try to get it working. I'm not having good results, though. I'll keep you posted.

As far as Windows hate, I don't hate Windows, I just don't use Windows. My primary computer is a Chromebook. The computers I use for Open Rails/MSTS are Windows XP. After OR 1.3 that won't be supported. So I'm left with old 32-bit computers that I need to put Ubuntu on to keep them going. I'm not flowing with disposable income, and I have children who I have to support, so play toys take a back seat. I have to work with what I have. Therefore, Linux is the future for me for Open Rails (and some small investments in maybe some graphics cards that will run the newer versions of the game). Maybe one day I will get another Windows box. I doubt it, though. I'm already trapped in Google now. If they would make their stuff compatible with major games, it would help, but they seem to be going after the school/business market.

So I'm stuck with 10 year old computers trying to get a game in development to continue to run. In a year's time, I won't be able to even run the newest version of OR so I have to figure out a solution that don't involve forking out over $1000 in cash to replace the 3 old desktops I have.

So I'm going to see what I can get going with the Monogame version, since Monogame actually installed on my Ubuntu box (and .Net refuses no matter how hard I try).

[ftldave]

If you're on a tight budget, why not consider a used i5 or i7 pc? The used pc market is flooded with them, lots of good deals. No need to be "forking out over $1000 in cash" these days.

[derekmorton]

from a thread on Elvas Tower:-

railguy,
I'd suggest you to reduce the viewing distance to e.g. 3000 m. That should significantly reduce GB of RAM needed.
Re Monogame, I just made available a version corresponding to the present OR experimental version (x.4018). It's however true that I update the MG version with a lower frequency than the appearance of new OR experimental versions.

So there is a monogame version of OR floating around on ET

[shadowmane]

To replace my setup, it would require three desktops. I just discovered one of the three computers is 64-bit, which means I will be able to run the game on it once a proper graphics card is secured (so that lowers it to two, and I don't have a Windows 7 key, so no Windows on any of the desktops I have now). The 64-bit is Pentium D, which is an old processor. I have seen Dell Optiplex on Amazon for $80 with, I think, i5 and Windows 10 on them. I've heard mixed reviews of Windows 10.

[Oregontrains]

Shadowmane,

You can massively upgrade your system through Newegg.com. Those guys have everything you need. You can custom build a Monster system with the cost of a Dell Optiplex. We're talking 6 core processors for under a 100 bucks. 6 gig video cards for 125 and so on. I too don't have a lot of money to spend on a new system but when I started doing it this way I got way more bang for the buck

[Erick_Cantu]

I've heard mixed reviews of Windows 10.

The best way to describe Windows 10 is "a Windows OS that's trying so hard to be MacOS that it can neither please Windows nor Mac users." It's not terrible, but it's not great.

Refurbished i7 systems can be had super cheap these days; the laptop I'm using at the moment cost me $300. I second the love for newegg.com... if you're not afraid to do a little work, you can build a good PC on the cheap.

[shadowmane]

So with an upgrade to the newest version of wine and winetricks, and a working graphics card I found that I didn't know I had, I was able to get the game up and running on the 64 bit Ubuntu box I have. I'll have to play around with it to see what does and doesn't work. I know the shift+9 doesn't bring up the dispatcher window, which is a bummer, because I use that quite a bit when running activities. I toyed around with multiplayer mode between this box and the one that I already had OR on. I couldn't get them both to connect, but they seemed to be on two different servers. No ability to see the other train, even though they both started close enough to one another to see each other. I can now move on from MSTS on another computer.

Sadly, there's not hope for my turn of the century Dell. It's just there as a place holder until I can get a newer computer.

[Oregontrains]

Elvas Tower thread has a version of OR called monogame. It's 64 bit and all you need for linux is the 4.5 .NET linux distrubution from Microsoft. It runs on OpenGl and 64 bit XNA replacement.

Edit: Whoops! the Direct X calls are still in use so Wine it is.

[markyisri]

So with an upgrade to the newest version of wine and winetricks, and a working graphics card I found that I didn't know I had, I was able to get the game up and running on the 64 bit Ubuntu box I have. I'll have to play around with it to see what does and doesn't work. I know the shift+9 doesn't bring up the dispatcher window, which is a bummer, because I use that quite a bit when running activities. I toyed around with multiplayer mode between this box and the one that I already had OR on. I couldn't get them both to connect, but they seemed to be on two different servers. No ability to see the other train, even though they both started close enough to one another to see each other. I can now move on from MSTS on another computer.

Sadly, there's not hope for my turn of the century Dell. It's just there as a place holder until I can get a newer computer.

It's CTRL+9 to bring up the dispatcher window I believe. Unless you changed the setting.

[shadowmane]

Yes. The CTRL+9 doesn't work in Ubuntu. It doesn't bring up a new window. I haven't tried using "Windows mode", which opens Wine in it's own window.