Improved Basic F5 Display

[OTTODAD]

Also, Direction DOES not mean North as you are thinking. In fact, it means Neutral. Other wise known as, reverser being in the center position, rather than forward (F) or reverse (R).

N did not ring a bell, using the reverser saying Forward and Reverse, but not NEUTRAL, what it should say !

Could also say Reverser instead of Direction for dummies like me !

How may train simmers care about knowing how trains brake systems work in reality. All they want to do is drive trains like they and I did on model railway layouts before 2001 ?

[PerryPlatypus]

How may train simmers care about knowing how trains brake systems work in reality. All they want to do is drive trains like they and I did on model railway layouts before 2001 ?

There is actually a very significant portion of our community that cares deeply about making sure brake systems work as close to reality as possible, which is why there are people who spend hours testing such things out, and why the braking code in Open Rails is something that continues to be closely analyzed, along with power, tractive effort, curve resistance, etc. This is all pretty important for those of us trying to accurately simulate real world operations with long heavy freight trains. I think if you were to try running a train in "Run 8" and the second you moved the brake handle to Release you throttled her up to run 8, you would most certainly break a coupler, as you would in the real world.

I would also prefer that "Direction" said "Reverser", especially since there are already different language versions of OR.

[P834C]

No offence, but if you actually understood train operations, you would know that BC (Brake Cylinder) would mean weather or not the car brakes, on the trainline, are fully released or not. Even in the real world, it takes some time for all the cars to fully release, making it a very sluggish start if you want to get going ASAP. So honestly, it's rather important to know this, other wise, have fun with the broken knuckles, drawbars, etc.
So if you want to know if your brakes are released, best be keeping an eye on that BC part!

I don't know which railroad you work for but your understanding of the BC readout is incorrect, real world and in ORTS.

In the real world BC stands for Brake Cylinder as in Locomotive Brake cylinders. BP or Brake Pipe gives an indication of the trainline pressure and can be used as a rough estimate if the train brakes have released but the real way to tell if the train brakes have released would be EOT device at the rear of the train. There is no indication anywhere on a locomotive that would tell you the air pressure in the freight car cylinders.

Now with ORTS BC is also for the locomotive brake cylinders. Pull up the F5 HUD and press the locomotive brake keys ([ & ]) and tell me if you see the BC value change. Also press the Bail Off key and tell me if you see the BC value change. Which brings me to a long time error in Open Rails where when you release the train brakes even with the loco brakes already released the BC value will not reduce until the trainline pressure (BP) increases. That's ridiculously wrong. The loco brakes can be released immediately and fully by moving the handle to the Release position and if there was any residual air in the locomotive brake cylinders it could be bled off with the bail off function. It doesn't work that way in ORTS and it needs to be fixed.

So may I suggest you re-think what you said about what BC is and what it tells the Engineer pertaining to the real world and ORTS?

[P834C]

How may train simmers care about knowing how trains brake systems work in reality. All they want to do is drive trains like they and I did on model railway layouts before 2001 ?

Probably lots. Not everybody does things like you Otto.

I do not make allowances for the few who use their own interpretations of what has been written and prefer to use PLAIN ENGLISH, most readers understanding its meaning of and if they don't then can ask a question, like some of the many thousands of staff did I have managed in my working life and clients I have supported !

I'm sorry but that statement wasn't written exactly in "plain english". Your english writing is a little mixed up at times.

[baldwin]

I don't know which railroad you work for but your understanding of the BC readout is incorrect, real world and in ORTS.

In the real world BC stands for Brake Cylinder as in Locomotive Brake cylinders. BP or Brake Pipe gives an indication of the trainline pressure and can be used as a rough estimate if the train brakes have released but the real way to tell if the train brakes have released would be EOT device at the rear of the train. There is no indication anywhere on a locomotive that would tell you the air pressure in the freight car cylinders.

Now with ORTS BC is also for the locomotive brake cylinders. Pull up the F5 HUD and press the locomotive brake keys ([ & ]) and tell me if you see the BC value change. Also press the Bail Off key and tell me if you see the BC value change. Which brings me to a long time error in Open Rails where when you release the train brakes even with the loco brakes already released the BC value will not reduce until the trainline pressure (BP) increases. That's ridiculously wrong. The loco brakes can be released immediately and fully by moving the handle to the Release position and if there was any residual air in the locomotive brake cylinders it could be bled off with the bail off function. It doesn't work that way in ORTS and it needs to be fixed.

So may I suggest you re-think what you said about what BC is and what it tells the Engineer pertaining to the real world and ORTS?

If you look at the F5 brake info page you will see that when you release the train brakes, the loco brakes are the first to begin reducing BC and if you bail off the loco BC drops to zero. It is the initial F5 HUD page that is wrong, not the OR braking code.

The speed of the loco brake release is entirely dependent on the settings in the eng file, and the train is dependent on the wag files. I have a test train of 3 SD70Ace and 41 hoppers. With my current settings the whole train is ready to roll in 35 seconds with no brake initialisation. I freely accept that this is not realistic but proves that OR can be set up to behave in a real manner provided eng and wag files are properly set up in the first place.

[OTTODAD]

Probably lots. Not everybody does things like you Otto. I'm sorry but that statement wasn't written exactly in "plain english". Your english writing is a little mixed up at times.

As is your Capitalization !

english ?

Yes, I am still learning, my mother-tongue being Austrian !

[CSRX]

I don't know which railroad you work for but your understanding of the BC readout is incorrect, real world and in ORTS.

In the real world BC stands for Brake Cylinder as in Locomotive Brake cylinders. BP or Brake Pipe gives an indication of the trainline pressure and can be used as a rough estimate if the train brakes have released but the real way to tell if the train brakes have released would be EOT device at the rear of the train. There is no indication anywhere on a locomotive that would tell you the air pressure in the freight car cylinders.

Now with ORTS BC is also for the locomotive brake cylinders. Pull up the F5 HUD and press the locomotive brake keys ([ & ]) and tell me if you see the BC value change. Also press the Bail Off key and tell me if you see the BC value change. Which brings me to a long time error in Open Rails where when you release the train brakes even with the loco brakes already released the BC value will not reduce until the trainline pressure (BP) increases. That's ridiculously wrong. The loco brakes can be released immediately and fully by moving the handle to the Release position and if there was any residual air in the locomotive brake cylinders it could be bled off with the bail off function. It doesn't work that way in ORTS and it needs to be fixed.

So may I suggest you re-think what you said about what BC is and what it tells the Engineer pertaining to the real world and ORTS?

Okay, so I made a simple mistake about the Brake Cylinder being with the locomotive brakes, rather than the car brakes. However, if it's to resemble the locomotive brakes only, they sure do release very slowly (even with bail off) in ORTS, compared to what they do on the real world locomotives. In the real world, I'll release the trainline and independent, and typically the "BC" pressure will release fairly quickly. About 10 seconds at most, even quicker with bail off.

So one can guess the BC on ORTS is talking more about the cars themselves. As it takes so long for those to release, just like the real world.

But what do I know.. I'm only a conductor/engineer and passed the certification test with 91%.

"Don't know what railroad your work for"
Psstt. It's in my signature.

[dcarleton]

So one can guess the BC on ORTS is talking more about the cars themselves.

The BC number in the F5 display shows the brake cylinder pressure on whichever vehicle that has the cab that you are using at the time. Usually that will be the lead locomotive. If the train brakes are released but the independents are applied, or if the train brakes are applied but the independents are bailed, you can tell by looking at the BC number.

MSTS values for applying and releasing the engine brakes are way too slow!

[CSRX]

The BC number in the F5 display shows the brake cylinder pressure on whichever vehicle that has the cab that you are using at the time. Usually that will be the lead locomotive. If the train brakes are released but the independents are applied, or if the train brakes are applied but the independents are bailed, you can tell by looking at the BC number.

MSTS values for applying and releasing the engine brakes are way too slow!

Hm, that troubles me, due to the fact that no matter what, both independent and automatic released, it still takes forever for the BC value to hit 0. Hence why I assumed it was referring to the cars themselves, and not the engine. Lite Engine, this problem doesn't take place. With three engines, and 40-80 cars, it's a constant problem, even with bail off. Either way, I'm not planning on ripping it to notch 8 soon as the engine brakes are released. That is by far not the proper way to handle a train.

Hopefully this is improved. And Yes, engine brakes are way too slow in my opinion to throw on. In the real world it wouldn't take that long to slap them on, especially when kicking cars. However, it's a simulator, and I can understand one can only do so much without totally breaking the physics and laws of the game.

[Vince]

Are not the braking parameters controlled by the engine file? And that depends on exactly what engine(s) are being used.

I've found that many (most?) engines have faulty parameters because MSTS didn't care or didn't do any internal checking when reading engine file parameters so following the forums at Elvas Tower helped me to get things right.
You could try checking the experimental "Correct questionable braking parameters" to see if that might help. It did help for some of the problems I encountered
And btw, I love ALL the HUD displays. Finally some proper displays for a HUGE boost in the ability to diagnos problems.
Don't remove or take away anything in the present HUD.
.
regards,

[mword77]

Are not the braking parameters controlled by the engine file? And that depends on exactly what engine(s) are being used.

My thoughts exactly. The sim is only as good as the settings in each wag and eng file. With the proper settings in each, it behaves much like the RW

[CSRX]

You could try checking the experimental "Correct questionable braking parameters" to see if that might help. It did help for some of the problems I encountered

Vince, Thanks for this tip, I will give this a try on my next ORTS run later tonight!

[P834C]

I think you guys are confused as to what I'm actually talking about. The application and release rate for a locomotive's independent brake is a parameter in the .eng files. Obviously adjusting the parameter will change the speed at which the loco brakes apply and release. But making those changes has nothing to do with the air in the locomotive brake cylinders releasing slowly after you release the train brakes.

In reality if you were on a train where all of the freight cars were fully charged and you had the train and loco brakes set and then you moved the Automatic Brake valve to the Release position the locomotive brake pressure (BC) would not change. Don't forget the true name of the loco brake system is Independent Brakes and the word independent means just that. It is a separate brake system. Anyway so now you have released the train brakes and the loco brakes are still at the common pressure of 72 psi. Now if you then moved the Independent Brake Valve to the Release position, the loco brakes release in about 5 seconds! Try that in ORTS and report back. If there is a .eng file parameter that controls that please point me in the right direction.

To sum up again, in ORTS the loco brake cylinders retain pressure even with the loco brakes fully released or bailed off until the train brakes are charged. It doesn't work that way (in reality) even if you are charging up the train air which is how ORTS starts the simulation.

If you look at the F5 brake info page you will see that when you release the train brakes, the loco brakes are the first to begin reducing BC and if you bail off the loco BC drops to zero. It is the initial F5 HUD page that is wrong, not the OR braking code.

The speed of the loco brake release is entirely dependent on the settings in the eng file, and the train is dependent on the wag files. I have a test train of 3 SD70Ace and 41 hoppers. With my current settings the whole train is ready to roll in 35 seconds with no brake initialisation. I freely accept that this is not realistic but proves that OR can be set up to behave in a real manner provided eng and wag files are properly set up in the first place.

I don't see that on my end. When I look at the F5 Brake Information HUD I see the car cylinders drop at a faster rate but the loco cylinders remain applied even after bailing. I can repeat the behavior with many payware and freeware locomotives and in fact I haven't found one yet that works differently. In addition your test train with a 35 second ready to roll pertains more to the charging rate and not what is happening with the loco brakes when you release the train brakes. In reality a real train is ready to roll as soon as the last car's brakes have released. You may not have enough air to apply the brakes again if you moved at that point but the train is ready to roll or already rolling at that point! (lol)

Hm, that troubles me, due to the fact that no matter what, both independent and automatic released, it still takes forever for the BC value to hit 0. Hence why I assumed it was referring to the cars themselves, and not the engine. Lite Engine, this problem doesn't take place. With three engines, and 40-80 cars, it's a constant problem, even with bail off. Either way, I'm not planning on ripping it to notch 8 soon as the engine brakes are released. That is by far not the proper way to handle a train.

Hopefully this is improved. And Yes, engine brakes are way too slow in my opinion to throw on. In the real world it wouldn't take that long to slap them on, especially when kicking cars. However, it's a simulator, and I can understand one can only do so much without totally breaking the physics and laws of the game.

"Don't know what railroad your work for"

Now we are on the same page as you see what I see! And FWIW I'm a UP/ex SP Engineer with 21 years and counting seat time.

[baldwin]

I think you guys are confused as to what I'm actually talking about. The application and release rate for a locomotive's independent brake is a parameter in the .eng files. Obviously adjusting the parameter will change the speed at which the loco brakes apply and release. But making those changes has nothing to do with the air in the locomotive brake cylinders releasing slowly after you release the train brakes.

In reality if you were on a train where all of the freight cars were fully charged and you had the train and loco brakes set and then you moved the Automatic Brake valve to the Release position the locomotive brake pressure (BC) would not change. Don't forget the true name of the loco brake system is Independent Brakes and the word independent means just that. It is a separate brake system. Anyway so now you have released the train brakes and the loco brakes are still at the common pressure of 72 psi. Now if you then moved the Independent Brake Valve to the Release position, the loco brakes release in about 5 seconds! Try that in ORTS and report back. If there is a .eng file parameter that controls that please point me in the right direction.

To sum up again, in ORTS the loco brake cylinders retain pressure even with the loco brakes fully released or bailed off until the train brakes are charged. It doesn't work that way (in reality) even if you are charging up the train air which is how ORTS starts the simulation.



I don't see that on my end. When I look at the F5 Brake Information HUD I see the car cylinders drop at a faster rate but the loco cylinders remain applied even after bailing. I can repeat the behavior with many payware and freeware locomotives and in fact I haven't found one yet that works differently. In addition your test train with a 35 second ready to roll pertains more to the charging rate and not what is happening with the loco brakes when you release the train brakes. In reality a real train is ready to roll as soon as the last car's brakes have released. You may not have enough air to apply the brakes again if you moved at that point but the train is ready to roll or already rolling at that point! (lol)





Now we are on the same page as you see what I see! And FWIW I'm a UP/ex SP Engineer with 21 years and counting seat time.

OK, now I have set up a "pure" MSTS consist, I see what you see, but that does not mean that the OR brake code is wrong, just that basic MSTS eng and wag files do not work properly with OR code. Bailoff does work, but the key must be held down and is slow to reduce, and it throws the whole system into Lap, so possible bug there.

OR does work well with MSTS stock, but to get the best you need to study the manual and make changes to the eng and wag braking parameters.

[OTTODAD]

Hi guys !

All this is of little use to the average simmer who just wants to fly, run or drive whatever out of the box and if it does will sell masses of, as it has done over the years for MSFS and MSTSBin !