OR Issues

[baldwin]

I have just taken a short run from Shelby to Cutbank in explore mode and found that most switches can be changed. The exceptions are switches that bring a diverge onto the player path in the same direction, ( imagine an inverted Y ). That is normal switch logic. However, even that does not hold true in all cases. I used version X2529.

[mikeebb]

Just some possibly relevant observations. I'm currently using X2920.

* The normal Control-M advice for gaining control of points does not apply in Explore mode, or at least it shouldn't. When I've tried it, I get the warning noted above. And yes, some points don't respond as expected to the G key in Explore mode - no way for me to tell beforehand which will do that.

* BTW the ORTS behavior of throwing the next switch be it facing or trailing point with the G key can make for operating issues in Explore mode; for a pair of crossovers where the closest to you is trailing, and you want to cross over, you have to creep into the trailing points then start hitting G hoping the facing points will throw. MSTS just throws the facing points from way back (before you can see them, even) so you don't have to slow down (below the diverging speed, of course). Also BTW, the MSTS points indicator in F4 of an arrow showing the direction of travel is much more user-friendly than ORTS, which often shows nothing (I think the red bar shows up only if you have trailing points thrown ahead of you, but for me it doesn't always show up).

* In recent ORTS releases, if I try to load a save from an earlier release, I get a message box essentially saying that the save is from old version (x) so if it doesn't work don't blame us. Then it usually just works, and the next time you save it's the updated version. That avoids having multiple versions installed unless some comparison testing is needed. Older releases, back in 2014 and earlier, did not do that - they just refused to load old saves and, if feeling nice, offered to delete them all. Current behavior is better, and quite acceptable.

* In Explore mode, I can usually pass red signals. If I hit Tab on approach, I'll usually get a message that there are no signals in the path, which I interpret as OR ignores signals while I'm exploring. Except, of course, when it doesn't. Some reds (seemingly randomly) do stop the train by triggering emergency braking, and in some cases even greens and yellows do it (the latter occurring with signals west of the Roseville depot area, eastbound, in the Roseville Sub project)! In Explore mode, if that happens, I can usually hit reset (control-z) and initialize brakes (in that order; initializing brakes doesn't let the train move unless the reset is hit first), and get going again.

[baldwin]

If you are westbound at Cutbank, those switches cannot be thrown. They are locked as they are now trailing switches with he other path coming in from your left. Facing switches can be thrown, trailing switches cannot once the path is set through them. In the two pictures shown the Cutbank crossover is facing in both directions.

[Vince]

Hmmm . . . I'd suggest you try it as I did in the pictures I posted. Remember . . .
Remember I did say Explore Mode! In explore Mode there IS NO PATH save the players.

edit add: verified. This is really a silly exercise but I did-in-fact verify that any and all switches on the USA2 Marias Pass route can be changed when in Explore Mode . . . West or Eastbound.
This is EXACTLY the same operation as in MSTS with the exception that switches cannot be changed in MSTS from the traiing (frog) side.

The switches in question (the East Cutbank crossovers) can be thrown from ANY of the 4 approaches to the crossovers . . . .

Since you have called my knowledge to question without justification I would ask you please verify and post your test results to backup what you have said.
Remember . . . . EXPLORER MODE !!!!

[roeter]

The posts above contain some sense but I fear also some nonsense.

Here's some info which I can ensure is correct as I actually created the code :
- OR does not distinguish between 'Manual' and 'Automatic' switches as defined for MSTS - all are treated as 'Manual'.
- If changing a facing switch on a cross-over, the trailing switch is not automatically aligned, EXCEPT :
if between the train and the facing switch there is a signal which controls the crossover. In that situation, it is assumed a 'proper'
path is set through the signal and the trailing switch is aligned automatically.
- In 'Explorer' mode, all switches can be thrown.
- In all other modes, switches can only be thrown if not locked by a train (either player or AI trains).
This also applies if the player train is in Manual mode : if a switch is locked by an AI train, it can not be thrown even if the player
train is in manual mode.

There are four ways to throw switches :
- using (shift-)G
- using F8 switch control window
- using Alt+Left-mouse button
- using Dispatcher window

Personally, when more than one switch has to be thrown, I prefer the mouse option : stop the train, get down from the engine and 'walk' along the track (using camera 8), setting the switches as required. Then either 'walk' back or have the second man bring the train up to you.

Hope this makes it all clear.

Regards,
Rob Roeterdink

[mikeebb]

Thanks! That helps me. I wasn't aware of all of the alternatives. Of course, I'll have to stop within sight of the crossover (which does have a controlling signal and in real life is in a CTC-governed section of the line) to change it with the mouse, but that's better than the current stabbing routine with the G key.

And I *have* run Original Marias with OR and found no switches I wanted to change that wouldn't. Not to say there are no problems with the route - we've known about them for ages, and several fixes are available in the File Library in the form of replacement & alternative routes - but stuck switches in Explore mode does not seem to be one of them.

[Vince]

The posts above contain some sense but I fear also some nonsense.

Here's some info which I can ensure is correct as I actually created the code :
............snip...........................
- In 'Explorer' mode, all switches can be thrown.
...........................snip................... .....
Hope this makes it all clear.

Regards,
Rob Roeterdink

Thank you Rob!

All the best

[baldwin]

side.[/B]

The switches in question (the East Cutbank crossovers) can be thrown from ANY of the 4 approaches to the crossovers . . . .

Remember . . . . EXPLORER MODE !!!!

I know of no other mode that allows one to explore a route.
However, I find that if approaching Cutbank westbound in explore mode, on the selected path the switch cannot be changed once the path is set through it, shown path is red. Logically this is correct because it is a trailing switch where the train cannot enter the other leg, you cannot path through it without passing and then reversing. Before that with the shown path as green you can throw the switch because it is not locked by the path.

Strangely the same cannot be said of the start point at Shelby where a similar situation applies with the train heading through a trailing switch. In this case it can be changed although logically it should be locked. However, the next one along, the trailing crossover next to the Sweetwater branch cannot be changed.

[OTTODAD]

I know of no other mode that allows one to explore a route.

Yes, there is, Jim Ward's Freestyle Explore Route mode, using a short player path, ORTS can use only after having selected MANUAL mode when running it, but is not working as simple like Jim's !

It allows loose consists and other driveable players to be placed and used when running such an activity, all switches being moveable and if not can be made MANUAL with the Skyline Activity Generator, or made UNSTUCK with the Route Riter !

The first part of this video shows the player Dash-9 run in the MSTS default Marias Pass Explore Route mode and the second part it is doing the same in ORTS.

Observe the difference of what their F8 displays show !

The last part shows Jim's Freestyle version and what it can do when "Explore the Route" !

http://www.otto-wipfel.co.uk/video/shelby-switches.wmv

I am sorry, but I prefer my DB-Tracks routes running Freestyle in MSTSBin and look forward to what this new UE-4 Train Simulator will do, if I am still alive to test it after it has been released !

http://crosstiestudios.com/

[Vince]

I know of no other mode that allows one to explore a route.
However, I find that if approaching Cutbank westbound in explore mode, on the selected path the switch cannot be changed once the path is set through it, shown path is red. Logically this is correct because it is a trailing switch where the train cannot enter the other leg, you cannot path through it without passing and then reversing. Before that with the shown path as green you can throw the switch because it is not locked by the path.Strangely the same cannot be said of the start point at Shelby where a similar situation applies with the train heading through a trailing switch. In this case it can be changed although logically it should be locked. However, the next one along, the trailing crossover next to the Sweetwater branch cannot be changed.

Here's what I observe;
1. I approach westbound on the right hand main and stop before the signal.
the trailing point switch ahead cannot be changed.

2. I move forward so I just pass the signal but STOP before the trailing point switch.
the trailing point switch ahead CAN be changed.
Conclusion: All switches CAN be changed in Explore Mode with the signal modifying the behavior as Rob stated.

Now if one is nitpicking here my original statement still stands!
There was NO discussion of signals originally. Just the straight fact that all swiches CAN-IN-FACT be changed in Explore Mode.

Throwing in a signal will modify this slightly but that was not part of the OP's problem. He said he "couldn't throw switches" period!

Now for some more fun and games:
Try this: Approach the crossovers on the LEFT main with your explore path remaining on the same tracks (not crossing over).
I generated a new path from just a bit east of the said crossovers to the WEST side of the bridge and ending on the double track main west of Cutbank.
1. Stop prior to the signal which displays Green/Red
2. Press 'G' and voila! The signal now displays RED/GREEN and the facing point switch changes to crossover.
And as displayed in the trqack monitor, all signals ahead go GREEN (clear)

Now since my path is originally set to stay on the left hand main the path to the trailing point switch at the bridge is set through the trailing point switch at the single track bridge. Okay? So my 'real' path is left main.

But wait!
I left my 'real' path when I manually left it at the east crossover . . . and the path is traced through the trailing point east switch at the bridge with the signal protecting the switch GREEN! Neat! BUT! . . I CAN change that switch at the east end of the bridge. The signal goes RED for me. I can change the switch to the right main (the track I'm on) but the signal remains RED!

I leave that for more knowledgable folks thay I to explain that but guessing that when I traced my path through the east crossover leaving my path it was traced through this signal (east bridge switch) and my changing the switch stopped that. Re-setting the switch does NOT set the signal GREEN.

So yes, introducing 'signals' into the mix does-in-fact support the "switches can't be changed" OP's statement.
But THAT was not the originally stated problem. The OP stated "I can't throw switches." Period!

Conclusion? He's well into the ORTS learning curve.
It's not very steep but it does require some degree of flexability in letting go of the old MSTS 'rules'.
I for one am quite happy at the slight differences and have no problem adjusting.

Again, thank you Rob for the clear cut explaination of how switches work with the added bonus of signals affecting them.
all the best,

[baldwin]

-................... In 'Explorer' mode, all switches can be thrown............................

Regards,
Rob Roeterdink

Sorry Rob, but that is not true. In Explore mode, no trailing switch can be thrown if the path is set through it and there is a signal between it and the train. As Vince has shown, move past the signal and that restriction is removed, although why anyone would want to throw a trailing switch unless part of a path through a crossover I fail to understand.

To the original poster, I think you can take it that nearly all switches can be thrown when running in Explore mode in Open Rails, provided you are running a version that supports it.

[bandorr2000]

Doesn't this make all turnouts manual?

new_usa2.zip

[Vince]

Sorry Rob, but that is not true. In Explore mode, no trailing switch can be thrown if the path is set through it and there is a signal between it and the train. As Vince has shown, move past the signal and that restriction is removed, although why anyone would want to throw a trailing switch unless part of a path through a crossover I fail to understand.
To the original poster, I think you can take it that nearly all switches can be thrown when running in Explore mode in Open Rails, provided you are running a version that supports it.

That's pretty funny Mervyn, almost borders on arrogance, you telling the guy who wrote the Open Rails code how his code works!

And btw, the latest version (as of this post) X2930, does in fact operate exactly as Rob states.

You need to carefully re-read Robs post. Throwing in signals to the OP's complaint is the height of Obsfucation. Why?

Because discounting the signal effect I CAN indeed throw ANY switch on ANY route when in explore mode.
Which is after all is all the OP complained about . . .
So Mervyn, when you write (post)

To the original poster, I think you can take it that nearly all switches can be thrown when running in Explore mode in Open Rails, provided you are running a version that supports it.

That my friend is totally incorrect! ALL switches can be thrown. . . Not NEARLY all, but ALL SWITCHES! . . . PERIOD!
Another reminder Mervyn:

Here's some info which I can ensure is correct as I actually created the code :
............snip...........................
- In 'Explorer' mode, all switches can be thrown.
...........................snip................... .....
Hope this makes it all clear. Regards, Rob Roeterdink

Inconvienient truth eh Mervyn?
Heh . . . You aren't by chance a member of the US Congress are you?
best, and thanks again Rob! Way to go!

[baldwin]

OK, lets just have a look at what we all three stated.

If changing a facing switch on a cross-over, the trailing switch is not automatically aligned, EXCEPT :
if between the train and the facing switch there is a signal which controls the crossover. In that situation, it is assumed a 'proper'
path is set through the signal and the trailing switch is aligned automatically.
- In 'Explorer' mode, all switches can be thrown.
- In all other modes, switches can only be thrown if not locked by a train (either player or AI trains).

Here the only reference to a signal modifier is in regard to setting twin crossover switches.

Here's what I observe;
1. I approach westbound on the right hand main and stop before the signal.
the trailing point switch ahead cannot be changed.

2. I move forward so I just pass the signal but STOP before the trailing point switch.
the trailing point switch ahead CAN be changed.
Conclusion: All switches CAN be changed in Explore Mode with the signal modifying the behavior as Rob stated.

Rob did not state that the signal modifier applied to Explore mode, but he did say that it applied to crossover pairs where the second switch is facing.

As Vince has shown, move past the signal and that restriction is removed, although why anyone would want to throw a trailing switch unless part of a path through a crossover I fail to understand.

Cant see any arrogance here beyond yours for not accepting that what you said and what I said are in fact identical and both clearly agree that a trailing switch in Explore mode can only be thrown if there is no signal between it and the player train.

[roeter]

Sorry Rob, but that is not true. In Explore mode, no trailing switch can be thrown if the path is set through it and there is a signal between it and the train. As Vince has shown, move past the signal and that restriction is removed, although why anyone would want to throw a trailing switch unless part of a path through a crossover I fail to understand.

But that's not so. It may look like it, but that's not what is happening.
The switch IS thrown when manually operated. But, as stated, a signal will always align trailing switches if a path has been cleared through them. So, the signal immidiately resets the switch back to it's proper alignment. So, both statements I made are correct : all switches can be thrown, and signals will align trailing switches if a path has been cleared through them.
The latter does indeed not only apply to explorer mode, but also applies when the player train is in manual mode.

Doesn't this make all turnouts manual?

Yes - and that is exactly what was intended.

Regards,
Rob Roeterdink