Conquering Saluda in OpenRails

[rlkimbal]

Taking a train down Saluda takes a lot of experience. That is why a Road Foreman of Engines always took the Belmont down. I have tripled several trains up Saluda and run light engines down, but never took a train down myself. I was on the Belmont one morning when the RFE cut in the dynamic brakes on the remote units to soon and we broke a knuckle and had to double the train down the hill.

Dick kimball

[frankoburns]

Thats the one issue with running this in MSTS, and maybe ORTS as well...No way to take the remote units offline or set the dynamics independently from the lead units..I didn't break any couplers because I had set them up for Roger's Pass originally because of a glitch in that route and a coupler issue there...When redoing the physics on this trainset for ORTS...the possibility of breaking a knuckle will become reality again..In the MSTS runs I made of this scenario, applying dynamics after the remote units created the grade crossing, the train was well over 20 mph and the result was not enough reduction in train speed to keep from triggering the safety switch....thus a fun "ride to the side" on the runaway track...One run, the train exceeded 30 mph! The best results were obtained by closing the throttle completely after the first 25 cars crested and then varying the dynamics from 25 percent for 10 cars, then full on for the rest of the train with a bit of train brake towards the middle when the remotes crest the grade. It stretches the hell out of the train and if not for my increased coupler settings, surely would have broke a coupler somewhere in the 5 cars before the remote units..(they were placed 60 cars back). Resulting train speed was 18 mph and I was able to maintain less than 20 the rest of the way down the hill. Without the ability to take the remotes offline or have independent control of their dynamics, this one issue might affect the ORTS version of this scenario, even with the retainers set and better physics tweaks..

[Snowman]

What is not mentioned in the film, is the fact that the rest of the cars on the train have their retainers set to the 'slow direct release' position.

It is mentioned as they leave Ashville that they set them to slow direct position, but I could never figure out if they stayed that way through out the trip, or they changed them when setting the retainers to high pressure at Paces. Now I know. My next thought is that OpenRails cant simulate this can it? You can simulate slow direct, or high pressure but it has to be one or the other, not both.

I need to sit down and redo the wag files on the cars using the friction numbers posted above.

My friction numbers are for a 100ton car which is probably a little light. The load limit is 211,000lbs (105.5t) plus the weight of the car 52,000lbs ( 26t ) which adds up to 131.5 tons which the train couldnt hold 8mph with that weight.

I changed my total weight to what the values were before editing which were 116.9ton and this was better of course recalculating in FCalc. So, to be sure I could get the train down some what realistically I lowered the weight to 100t and edited value accordingly.

Below are my values for each:

Mass ( 100t )

Friction (
1058.0N/m/s -0.10 1.6mph 4.757N/m/s 1.731

Comment ( *** Friction *** )

ORTSBearingType ( Roller )

ORTSDavis_A ( 1058.00 )
ORTSDavis_B ( 16.4530 )
ORTSDavis_C ( 1.400056 )

********************************

Mass ( 116.9t )

Friction (
1182.3N/m/s -0.10 1.6mph 5.582N/m/s 1.697

Comment ( *** Friction *** )

ORTSBearingType ( Roller )

ORTSDavis_A ( 1182.30 )
ORTSDavis_B ( 19.2336 )
ORTSDavis_C ( 1.400056 )

********************************

Mass ( 131.5t )

Friction (
1289.7N/m/s -0.10 1.6mph 6.328N/m/s 1.671

Comment ( *** Friction *** )

ORTSBearingType ( Roller )

ORTSDavis_A ( 1289.68 )
ORTSDavis_B ( 21.6357 )
ORTSDavis_C ( 1.400056 )

[markus1996]

[...]
You can simulate slow direct, or high pressure but it has to be one or the other, not both.
[...]

AFAIK, the latest revisions to the braking system also allow for retainers set on a per-car basis via the train operations window.

Cheers, Markus

[frankoburns]

AFAIK, the latest revisions to the braking system also allow for retainers set on a per-car basis via the train operations window.

Cheers, Markus

That would be a plus...

[Snowman]

AFAIK, the latest revisions to the braking system also allow for retainers set on a per-car basis via the train operations window.

Cheers, Markus

I see where to close bleed valve and angle cocks but no retainers. Not saying it isnt there but Im not seeing it in version X2811

[rlkimbal]

Another problem may be the dynamic brake values in the .eng files. All Southern and NS locomotives had "tapered" dynamic brakes, as opposed to the "flat" brakes that many roads used. The Southern brakes could maintain maximum braking force down to 4 or 5 mph, whereas the flat brake began losing braking force at 25 mph. Southern engines also had a "Saluda Mtn" switch which would hold t0he dynamic brakes on if the train went into emergency. This was controlled with a key that only the RFE had.

Dick Kimball

[Snowman]

g force at 25 mph. Southern engines also had a "Saluda Mtn" switch which would hold t0he dynamic brakes on if the train went into emergency. This was controlled with a key that only the RFE had.

Dick Kimball

They mention the key in the video but this isnt really an issue as dynamics dont cut out if you go into emergency in OR? If that is the case then once again is this something that isnt prototypical in OR? That is, when you go into emergency, typically or by default the dynamics should cut out?

[rlkimbal]

They mention the key in the video but this isnt really an issue as dynamics dont cut out if you go into emergency in OR? If that is the case then once again is this something that isnt prototypical in OR? That is, when you go into emergency, typically or by default the dynamics should cut out?

This feature was unique to Southern and only was operational on Saluda when the RFE activated it. O.therwise these locomotives dropped power or dynamic brake whenever the train went into emergency.

Dick Kimball

[sidp]

I see where to close bleed valve and angle cocks but no retainers. Not saying it isnt there but Im not seeing it in version X2811

You are right - it looks like the retainers are now only set by the Shift+] and Shift+[ commands. The current versions only allow for 25%, 50% or 100% of the cars to have their BC set to LP (lowpressure ) or HP (highpressure). Look at the F5 Brake display - the data appears as a column of "RV EX" for Retainer Valve-Exhaust, "RV LP" for Retainer valve low pressure, etc.
If the .wag files do not have the retainer valve defined in the BrakeEquipmentType ( ".., Retainer_4_position, " , then you have to check the option "Retainer Valve on All Cars" on the General options.

Also, if you use "Initialize Brakes" command, it seems to clear all the retainers.

Cheers,

[Snowman]

You are right - it looks like the retainers are now only set by the Shift+] and Shift+[ commands. The current versions only allow for 25%, 50% or 100% of the cars to have their BC set to LP (lowpressure ) or HP (highpressure). Look at the F5 Brake display - the data appears as a column of "RV EX" for Retainer Valve-Exhaust, "RV LP" for Retainer valve low pressure, etc.
If the .wag files do not have the retainer valve defined in the BrakeEquipmentType ( ".., Retainer_4_position, " , then you have to check the option "Retainer Valve on All Cars" on the General options.

Also, if you use "Initialize Brakes" command, it seems to clear all the retainers.

Cheers,

I as well noticed that initialize the brakes it clears the retainers because I didnt want to wait for brakes every time I wanted to test my train over Saluda. This was solved by saving the game after recharging

All this brings me back to earlier points of OpenRails not allowing each car in a consist to have their brake controls, controlled independently. As a personal gripe and I wonder if anyone else ponders the same, but the "train operations window" or F9 doesnt feel right to me. Id rather click on a cars coupler and have the menu come up that way, so for one I know which car Im working with without having to know the car number. Taking a wild guess Id say this isnt possible due to the coupler being a modeled part and theres no universal way to define what part of a model is a coupler. Run8 has this feature and it works great.

It feels sometimes, especially going over Saluda, I spend too much time going through various menu screens and not enough actual interaction with the train. Just a personal gripe. Im just happy the ability is there to begin with.