MSTS Contend required by ORTS

[OTTODAD]

..

[Vince]

[B][SIZE=3][COLOR=#0000cd]Which has to have been installed from MSTS CDs.

That turns out not to be the case Otto.

Folders needed to run MSTS content on the Open Rails platform are:

....\OPEN RAILS (or it can be any name you want to call it) This is where all the subfolders and files from Open Rails platform will reside.

I named mine \OR and I keep it on the Desktop. This for convenience and to keep it separated from my MSTS install which I use ONLY for the Editors.

Then for the MSTS part, these four (4) folders and their contents can be located in a folder anywhere on a users machine.

....\GLOBAL
....\SOUND
....\TRAINS
....\ROUTES
They do not have to be installed from the MSTS Install CD's; A simple copy of them to any folder you want is all that's required.
Couldn't be simpler eh?

enjoy!

[Vince]

This is the issue. Either you DO need MSTS or you DON'T... Period!

Well, it turns out that you really DONT!

Try this on for size:

Lets say I dont own MSTS
I am however able to download the Mini PRR East from the file library at Trainsim.com here and other sources. Other routes distributed in mini format also. Or I can buy the PRR Eastern Region Mini Route CD.

FYI, the PRR East is distributed with everything needed to run under MSTS EXCEPT Train.exe and some DLL's.

To run the route under MSTS I must supply the MSTS Train.exe executable and the DLL's. purportably bought from a legal source. Heh!

With me so far?

So lets say I'm a user that does not have MSTS but I do have Open Rails so . . . .

I can run the PRR East without EVER having bought the MSTS install disks because I don't need the Train.exe and the dll files for OR.

And if I have the PRR East (and IIRC there are some others distributed this way (Mini Route) I am able to run ANY route in the Trainsim File Library and ANY other file repository for MSTS content in the world.

Reason, you can NOT obtain the files from your buddies! That is Piracy!

Oh and I don't need to 'obtain' (love that word) the files from my buddies. I can get them right here at Trainsim.com! No trouble at all!

How's that grab 'ya buddy? No piracy involved at all . . . just an open can of worms. I love it!
Sorry to bust your bubble.

enjoy!
edit add replying to what you edited in while i was editing errrr:
Of course the FAQ doesn't say anything about 'copying' . . .THAT requirement my friend is quite obvious and must be obvious to you also since you got so worked up about it. Lighten up!

Unless MSTS has been installed (at one time or another) from the CDs, that you are supposed to OWN, on to YOUR Computer, How are you supposed to get those files?...

That's pure baloney! Who or where does it say I'm "supposed to own"? Sorry but you can't generate a so called quote to serve your point when it does not exist!

All the needeed files are available here in the file library.
No need to 'own' MSTS at all. I thought I explained that above.

Again >>>====> All needed files to run MSTS CONTENT under Open Rails are available here zand many other file libraries. MSTS is ONLY neede for the editors. And that requirement will soon end thank goodness.

This is why OTTO mentioned "Copyright?"

And THAT'S why I mentioned the PRR EAST and other Mini Route Distributions!
How about the Standardized TSection.dat file! And the XTracks add-on's

Stop kidding yourself and enjoy!

[Vince]

Simplified:
Try This. Delete MSTS from your system!

Now download the PRR Eastern Region Route and install it in a folder on your desktop.

Next download and install Open Rails. Start OR and you can run the route! NO MSTS INSTALLED!!

Now download ANY MSTS route you want from the file library and install it.

Run it!

Done! You're running MSTS routes without having MSTS installed.
No editors wanted or needed.

So?
Piracy?
I don't think so!

[Vince]

Which is why this question keeps getting asked... Over... And Over... And Over...

Do I? or Do I not? Need to have installed MSTS from the CDs (even if the legally owned files are now "backed up" on another computer that you own and can copy them from...to make things easier) sometime prior to installing and running Open Rails?

here: http://openrails.org/download/content/

All your questions are answered at the website.
I'd respectfully suggest you read ALL the information on the OR Site and then get busy with Elvas Tower. Took me about a week of going through it all and now MSTS is dead to me except for me needing the editors.

Try this on MSTS: Generate an activity on the PRR East with over 100 scheduled AI traffic trains and over 100 loose static consists and have it run flawlessly!
Over 60 AI trains running at the same time full length NY Penn to Washington! No Double reverse points, no fancy passing paths, just LOTS of passenger and freight traffic with every yard filled along the route.

Downside is it takes the activity more than 2 and a half minutes to load and initialize which is just enuf time to nuke me a cuppa coffee!

[mikeebb]

Why does this always have to be so complicated? Anyway:

1) ORTS does not require MSTS to run. It is a completely independent program that uses none of the code from MSTS. The Project makes this abundantly clear at its website. It is, however, designed to be compatible with MSTS, which is helpful.

2) ORTS DOES NOT COME WITH CONTENT. While it will run, it won't do anything if it can't find routes, equipment, etc. By default, it looks for everything in your MSTS installation, since that's where most things are that people will use. The ORTS documents, and several other websites, do mention a couple of routes that are fully independent of MSTS, and some equipment (payware or otherwise) also is fully independent, and you CAN build the necessary GLOBAL folders if you don't have MSTS, so it's possible to get started without MSTS at all, but you will eventually (perhaps sooner than later) want to run something else, or on some other route. For those, you DO have to have MSTS.

3) MOST CONTENT (routes, trains, etc.) EITHER USES OR "ALIASES" TO CONTENT SUPPLIED WITH MSTS. In order to use this content, you have to have MSTS installed. This is for, among other things, copyright reasons, but also because the developers of most of the non-MS (free or commercial) content out there designed their work so the route, equipment, or whatever is used with MSTS.

Very little content is ORTS-specific or MSTS-independent. Almost all freeware routes, for instance, have the infamous INSTALLME.BAT that must be run before the route will work; that just copies (sometimes a lot of) scenery items from MSTS default routes to the new route. Makes sense: the route was designed to work with MSTS, so it doesn't need to include copies in the distribution zip file of all those buildings, tracks, & other things it needs that MSTS already has; it leaves them out (for a smaller download) then copies them during installation. Of course, you need to have those items available to prepare the routes to work in ORTS, too. Also, many locomotives alias their sound and cabview (or items in it), for instance, from the default GP38 or Flying Scotsman; you only have that if you have MSTS. Similarly, the GLOBAL directories mentioned above ARE PART OF MSTS - you can only copy them if you also have MSTS.

YOU CAN'T USE THE MSTS DATA FILES (with ORTS, you don't care much about the actual program) UNLESS YOU OWN A LEGAL COPY OF THE ORIGINAL PROGRAM. Microsoft bought 'em or built 'em, so they own 'em and you can only use them if you bought it all from Microsoft (or through an authorized channel).

Bottom line: ORTS does not require MSTS to run. They are correct in stating that. However, if you want to do anything useful with it in the short term, want to avoid the monkey-motion inherent in creating the needed scenery and equipment folders and filling them with NON-MS DATA to use ORTS independently, and want to use routes and trains other than those few (so far) that don't require anything from MSTS, you need to install BOTH. You don't have to run MSTS, but you have to have it, installed.

Cheers!

Mike (not affiliated with ORTS, but a happy user)

[MCDemuth]

Why does this always have to be so complicated? Anyway:

...

Bottom line: ORTS does not require MSTS to run. They are correct in stating that. However, if you want to do anything useful with it in the short term, want to avoid the monkey-motion inherent in creating the needed scenery and equipment folders and filling them with NON-MS DATA to use ORTS independently, and want to use routes and trains other than those few (so far) that don't require anything from MSTS, you need to install BOTH. You don't have to run MSTS, but you have to have it.

Cheers!

Mike (not affiliated with ORTS, but a happy user)

Thank You Mike.

That is the best answer I have ever seen, and what I always suspected...

[R. Steele]

I have heard nothing but good things about Open Rails. No advertising is needed.
Only two things are keeping me from getting in to Open Rails.
1.) I haven't been able to get, for over two years, a straight and consistent answer from the masses as to what is needed prior to the installation...
2.) The version is still 0.9-. Version numbers that are less than 1.0 are always considered Beta. Beta versions have glitches, and I have heard that Open Rails does have some glitches. I have heard that fixes are underway though. Hopefully a version 1.0 will happen very soon.

That's all that holding you up? From many of threads you have posted I gather you are certainly more knowledgeable than myself.

Just re-discovered my original unopened set of MSTS CDs in Jan 2013 (joined Elvas and TS around same time), installed following instructions at Steam4Me. Ran MSTSBin until May2013, switched to Open Rails at that time (around X1800 something??), have not looked back.

So what's really up. I am a noob, newby, newbie, piglet, amateur and am successfully running OR every day and keeping up with the Friday releases, participating in this wonderful train community endeavor. Come on, jump in, contribute, what is really holding you back.
You can still run that Grand Ole Gal/Guy MSTS but you really should begin experiencing the new world. No time like the present.
Just do it and don't tell anyone!!

Just forget everything in this post - never happened - you are certainly knowledgable enough to setup OR. Just DO IT. Obviously you already have MSTS installed. Install OR and start running. You can still keep debating about what is or is not needed to setup OR, and with more authority, because you WILL have a setup to use as an example!

[cjakeman]

My Questions were not answered at the Open Rails site.
...
1.) I haven't been able to get, for over two years, a straight and consistent answer from the masses as to what is needed prior to the installation...

The website says:
Do I need Microsoft Train Simulator (MSTS) installed to use OR?
You do not need MSTS installed in order to use Open Rails.

When MSTS is installed, then Open Rails can safely make use of all the MSTS content as it does not change any MSTS files.

Most non-MSTS routes, activities and rolling stock make use of some MSTS content, usually sound files, textures and cab interiors. If products designed for MSTS are used on a PC with OR but not MSTS, then they are likely to work but some sounds and textures will be missing. Such files will be listed with warnings in the OR log file.

Seems pretty clear to me. How would you prefer to explain it?

Chris
OR Development Team

[crstagg]

Otto & Chris,

Is this statement clearer?

Do I need Microsoft Train Simulator (MSTS) installed to use OR?
You do not need MSTS installed in order to use Open Rails.

BUT, the add-ons that you install may need some of the files that get installed with MSTS. For instance:

• Routes with an Install.bat file that copies shapes and textures from the Routes installed from the MSTS CDs.
• Locomotives that Alias Cabview and/or Sound to the "Default" locomotives that get installed from the MSTS CDs.
• Rolling Stock that have Sound Management (SMS) files that make calls to Wave files located in the "Global" Sound folder.

[eric]

If individual routes or freeware engines "require" the default routes or equipment, that's still not a requirement of ORTS.

It's no different than a route requiring Newroads or Scalerail. It's not an ORTS requirement - it's a route requirement.

Same with a reskin. It's not an ORTS requirement - it's the reskin's requirement.

Anyone who has a file backup of the original routes and equipment can easily copy those to theirs current PC. No need to install from the original CDROM.

[mword77]

I could really do without the giant red and blue font as well. I'm sure you can make your points without all the gimmicks Otto. It's getting old...

[crstagg]

Totally incorrect !

If ORTS users do not have MSTS installed on their computers then where do they get the MSTS folders from which ORTS needs to be able to run MSTS Routes ? Pirated from another computer ?

Ok Otto, Let's quit the shouting!

How do ORTS users get the folder from? Are you serious? Surely someone that has used Windows since Windows 3.0 knows how to right click, choose New, then Choose Folder and click. Repeating 3 more times. Then Highlight the folder names and type "Global, or Sound, Or Routes or Trains. ORTS just needs the folders not ANY of the MSTS contents.

I have an Install that only has 3dTrains Feather River route and nothing from my MSTS CDs on it. Let me explain how I created it.
- Opened Windows Explorer to my SSD drive's root folder.
- Right clicked on the white space in the right column of Win Explorer and chose New, then Folder, then edited the name of the folder to WP3-RAW
- Look up my 3dTrains Feather River installer file on the HD I save my purchases to. Clicked on the executable installer. Pointed it to A:\WP3-RAW and clicked Install. (FYI I made my SSD my A drive easier to find that way.
- Pointed Win Explorer back to A:\WP3-RAW and here is what I found: Marc's installer had created Four folders in the A:\WP3-RAW folder (No files by the way) These folders were Global, Routes, Sound and Trains.
---The Global folder had one folder: Shapes, and 4 files. The four files in the Global folder were tsection.dat (Build 38), camcfg.wp3, Use_WP3_Camera.bat, and Use_Original_Camera.bat. The Global\Shapes folder contained 1186 ScaleRail and ScaleRoads shape and SD files.
---The Routes folder contained one Folder: WP3 which had all the normal route files and folders. Plus a Documents and an Uninstall folder.
---The Sound folder contained only 15 files all named 3dT_#####.WAV
---The Trains Folder contained two folders. Trains\Consists with 22 CON files. Trains\Trainset with 3 folders: 3DTrains_WP_Freight, 3DTrains_WP_Locomotives, and 3DTrains_WP_Zephyr.

After that I ran Open Rails. Added WP3-Raw to its lost of installs and ran it to see if it worked. It did. But I found one problem. The locomotive exhaust came out in solid black squares. Did some research and found a file in my regular MSTS installation's Global/Textures folder named dieselsmoke.ace. Created a textures folder at X:\WP3-Raw\GLOBAL\Textures and copied dieselsmoke.ace to it. Ran ORTS on my WP3-Raw install again. Now the loco exhaust looks GREAT! When I found that file I also found another named smokemain.ace which after testing I have found is for Steam engines. What I also noticed when I found these files that their creation dates are not back in 2001 when MSTS was originally released but mine were dated 2005. I ran a new fresh MSTS install from my CD and found files of the same names with 2001 dates. Searching the file library here at T-S I found some replacements which I must have downloaded/installed years ago.

So now you see I have an Install that ORTS can run with nothing from my MSTS CDs. Just one file from the T-S Library and 3dTrains Feather River.

TO RUN MSTS ROUTES IN ORTS, MSTS HAS TO HAVE BEEN INSTALLED INTO THE COMPUTER'S WINDOWS REGISTRY !

NO! My Registry still points to A:\MSTS where I installed MSTS and bin following the procedure at Steam-4-Me. And ORTS runs My A:\WP3-RAW install without changing the MSTS entry in the Registry.

I was going to answer other incorrect comments by Otto but he deleted his post. Oh well time for supper.

[OTTODAD]

My final post on the subject of ORTS !

[mikeebb]

The underlined text may be a bit misleading, even though it's not actually wrong. Since ORTS needs route and model data to do any more than take up disk space, and most new users previously used MSTS, ORTS looks for the MSTS registry keys to find out where it and its data live, and automatically adds the data to its list of routes etc. That way you can have at least the default routes to use immediately, along with anything else you installed into the MSTS folders. If you have routes otherwise installed in different locations, such as miniroutes, ORTS needs a little help from you to find them and add them to its list. Access to and use of the MSTS registry keys is a convenience for the new user who's coming from MSTS, not a requirement. As noted in the sentence following the underlined text, no MSTS program code is harmed or used in the process of locating and linking the MSTS data.

As Charles noted, it's sometimes possible to get a route going with no access to MSTS at all - you just have to tell ORTS where it is because if it's not in the MSTS folder hierarchy ORTS can't find it by itself. Same thing as adding a miniroute like PRR-ER or L&PS. I have both PRR-ER and L&PS, and both work OK in ORTS after I told it where to find them.

-Mike