A couple of observations......

**rdamurphy** · 02-03-2013, 08:58

Bruce, the MLT sig.ace used a mip-mapping trick to create the "flare" of the signal, and since OR uses a different graphics engine, it doesn't work the same way.

I completely understand why people liked it, but in effect, it does exactly the same thing the F4 pop up does - it lets you cheat. You can't see a signal a 1/2 mile away. As a matter of fact, sometimes you're just a few feet away from it before you can see it, especially if the head has been bumped and isn't pointing down the track.

So, how do railroaders "see" signals if they don't have a cab signal box?

Simple. The don't. You should know exactly what the next signal is if you have to.

Think of it this way.

You just passed a signal, it's Clear. You saw it at the last minute. No problem. It's Clear.

Next signal, you're five feet away, and you see it's a flashing yellow, Advance Approach. Uh oh. Nothing you can do now. That's OK, the only thing you have to do is reduce your speed to 40 mph and pass the next signal at 30. Because, of course, the next signal will be either Approach, Advance Approach, or Clear. It has to be, the signal just told you that.

Next signal, you slow to 30 because it's around a curve, and if it's Advance Approach again, simply hold 30 because the next signal will be either Advance Approach, Approach, or Clear.

Next signal is Approach, but the lens is dirty, and you don't see it until you pass it. That's OK, you're already doing 30mph because the last signal told you to. So, what's the next signal? Could be Stop, Stop&Proceed, Restricting, Approach, Advance Approach, or Clear. Or... A couple other possibilities.

So, what do you do? Simple. What you're supposed to do. You're supposed to be prepared to stop at the next signal. Now, as train simmers, we really don't want to slow down and be prepared to stop, but if you can't see that next signal, you may have to stop to see what it is. As you approach (pun intended) the signal, you see it's flashing red - Restriciting, and you just hold tight, because you're going into the next block at 10mph, and you're going to be able to stop at 1/2 of the distance you can see ahead. That may be 10 mph, but it may be 5. Point is, if there's a FRED ahead, you need room to stop.

But what if it's Approach? Do you speed up to 30mph prepared to stop at the next signal?

You can. Or you can hold back and allow the train you know you're following to move ahead a bit so you can maintain a higher speed. Or you can hold tight to his tail and "ride the Yellows."

Either way, you know where the train ahead of you is at all times, because the last signal told you the status of the track.

Clear: 3 blocks ahead clear, Advance Approach, 2 blocks ahead clear, Approach, next block clear, Restricting, train in next block.

Sorry if that didn't answer your question, though...

Robert

**cjakeman** · 02-03-2013, 11:10

Hi Bruce,

Originally posted by seagoon

The first is that when in the cab of some Streamlines and MLT locos, using the UP and DOWN arrows to view the top and bottom extremities of the display not only does what it is supposed to do but also then acts like the same keys in the head-out view; you start to incline your head up or down, with the result that the horizon moves down or up!

Is this supposed to occur?

Yes, the view through the cab window should not change when you look down, so if the window moves up, then the horizon is supposed to move up too. They should move exactly together, but the movement is poorly synchronised.

If it doesn't do this, could you post some screenshots to show what is happening?

Thanks,

Chris
OR Dev

**seagoon** · 02-03-2013, 13:26

Originally posted by rdamurphy

Bruce, the MLT sig.ace used a mip-mapping trick to create the "flare" of the signal, and since OR uses a different graphics engine, it doesn't work the same way.

I completely understand why people liked it, but in effect, it does exactly the same thing the F4 pop up does - it lets you cheat. .......

Robert, I respectfully beg to differ.

I have several cab-ride DVDs and in every case it is possible to discern the signal aspect from more than half-a-mile away when viewing the signal from a direct approach.
And like the effect in MLT's tweak, the intensity of the light reduces as the train nears it until it is literally just a circle the same diameter as the unit itself.

The effect is very similar to that of our ability as car drivers to see a traffic light from quite some distance, particularly with these newer types which use LED illumination.

Bruce

**wacampbell** · 02-03-2013, 13:36

Originally posted by seagoon

Why doesn't it work in OR?

Bruce

This is a valid observation and one that we might be able to fix. I realize its not a show-stopper, but please enter it as a bug so that it gets on our to do list.

**rdamurphy** · 02-03-2013, 14:40

Bruce, while I would agree with you on flat level territory, depending on the territory, well, let me show you what I'm talking about...

Note the signal right next to the lead unit:

But in reality, my point is, you don't need to see the signal 1/2 mile away... And in my part of the country, you're probably not going to see it 1/2 mile away. Factor in rain, snow, dawn, dusk, and just plain aging signals, or tons of other factors, and you may not get a peek until you're on top of it. On the one cab ride I've been on, I paid close attention to the signals, it was broad daylight, and none of them were visible that far away.

Also, remember, a searchlight is going to show up a lot more clearly than a standard three light or other types.

Robert

**seagoon** · 02-03-2013, 17:27

Originally posted by wacampbell

This is a valid observation and one that we might be able to fix. I realize its not a show-stopper, but please enter it as a bug so that it gets on our to do list.

Shall do, Mr. Campbell.
Thank you for suggesting that I suggest it.

Bruce

**seagoon** · 02-03-2013, 17:34

Originally posted by rdamurphy

Bruce, while I would agree with you on flat level territory, depending on the territory, well, let me show you what I'm talking about.........Note the signal right next to the lead unit:

Well, I can see the signal stanchion, Robert, but not the light itself....not from that angle.
(Is that the Soldier Summit route in real life?)

Originally posted by rdamurphy

But in reality, my point is, you don't need to see the signal 1/2 mile away... ...

Agreed, so long as the arrangement has a flashing yellow between your last green and the next (solid yellow) signal before the red is met.
At least you have the chance to reduce speed to the maximum allowed under that condition.

However, when your last signal was a green (single light) and you are now approaching a solid yellow (single light) and you are required to reduce speed immediately, THEN you need to see the light from half-a-mile away (if in direct line of sight).

Bruce

**rdamurphy** · 02-03-2013, 19:24

Actually, that's the Big Ten Curves near Rocky Flats, Colorado. They're 10 degree curves, on a grade. It's the approach to the Tunnel District. If you look closely towards the top of the loop, there's a dead end track inside the curve with rock filled hopper cars welded to the track to keep the wind from blowing over light cars.

Even on an Approach signal, you don't have to pass the signal at 30mph. GCOR says you must immediately reduce your speed to 30mph. In reality, if there's no Advance Approach, you're not going to have a track speed of 55. It'll probably be Advance Approach speed anyway, probably 40 or 45. A 55mph trackspeed will have the Advance Approach, and anything higher you may even have Advance Limited to slow you down to 60.

The default NEC route on MSTS went from 120mph Clear to 30mph Approach! Ever try the Riding the Yellows activity? LOL! It was one of my favorites.

Robert

**seagoon** · 02-03-2013, 19:25

Originally posted by cjakeman

If it doesn't do this, could you post some screenshots to show what is happening?

Chris, I've provided several screenshots as below.
Just an explanatory note in that this effect also happens when looking out the LH or RH cab-views, as can be seen in the shots, taken on the Shuswap and Roger's Pass routes and with default MLT locos.

RP_centre-down.jpg RP_centre-up.jpg RP_left-down.jpg RP_left-up.jpg RP_right-down.jpg

**seagoon** · 02-03-2013, 23:25

Originally posted by rdamurphy

Actually, that's the Big Ten Curves near Rocky Flats, Colorado. They're 10 degree curves, on a grade. It's the approach to the Tunnel District. If you look closely towards the top of the loop, there's a dead end track inside the curve with rock filled hopper cars welded to the track to keep the wind from blowing over light cars.....

There's a route for MSTS that features those cars....I thought it was Soldier Summit but it must be something else.

Even on an Approach signal, you don't have to pass the signal at 30mph. GCOR says you must immediately reduce your speed to 30mph. In reality, if there's no Advance Approach, you're not going to have a track speed of 55. It'll probably be Advance Approach speed anyway, probably 40 or 45. A 55mph trackspeed will have the Advance Approach, and anything higher you may even have Advance Limited to slow you down to 60.

Trouble not all the MSTS routes are accurate in their signalling department.

But I do get your point and understand - and accept - what you are saying.

Bruce

**rdamurphy** · 02-04-2013, 01:43

Rollins Pass, by Don Karch. Funny thing is, we've collaborated on several things, including the Joint Line, and we live 75 miles from each other but have never met...

Robert

**seagoon** · 02-04-2013, 04:11

Originally posted by rdamurphy

Rollins Pass, by Don Karch. Funny thing is, we've collaborated on several things, including the Joint Line, and we live 75 miles from each other but have never met...

That's the one, Robert. Nice route.

I know what you mean about working with others so close but never meeting.
Some years ago I created a package for Flightsim in collaboration with a couple of people - one in Scotland and the other in Spain and the third, the subject of the WW2 story, less than 3 km from my house.
I never met the man - communicated by email.

Bruce

**cjakeman** · 02-06-2013, 02:09

Originally posted by seagoon

Chris, I've provided several screenshots as below.
Just an explanatory note in that this effect also happens when looking out the LH or RH cab-views, as can be seen in the shots, taken on the Shuswap and Roger's Pass routes and with default MLT locos.

Wow! I can see very clearly what you mean.

Can you confirm that these problems all go away when you revert to the old "stretched" cabview? (Use Menu > Options > General > % Cab 2D Stretch = 100)

Are these locos commercial? Have you seen the problem with any free locos, so I can try it for myself?

Thanks,

Chris
OR Dev

**seagoon** · 02-06-2013, 02:40

Chris, it does it all over the place and even with the old "stretched" cabview activated at 100%.
I've tried it on the following routes:-

Kicking Horse Pass v2 - MLT
Roger's Pass - MLT
Shuswap - MLT
Green River -Streamlines
Horsehoe Curve (Freeware - Austin Yoder)
Rollins Pass (Freeware - Don Karch)
Several of Bob Wirth's "western" routes
Seligman - Streamlines
Willamette (Cascade) - MLT
Australian routes North Western and Blue Mountains.

Locomotives are all types, mostly commercial (MLT or Streamlines) but one or two freeware items (the Australian routes).

If the fault doesn't initiate when in the ahead view, it will when looking out one or the other side windows.

There seems to be no consistency.

It does it in both versions of OR - release v8 or X-File 1413 and it makes no difference whether the "stretch" is at 100% or 0%.

Regards,
Bruce

A couple of observations......

A couple of observations......

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