OR 0.8.0 and Tractive Force

[UP_4848_Thunder]

After experiencing pulling power speed and force issues with even an overpowered consist with the release of OR 0.8.0 and seeing the issue reading the opt manual (pg 27) saying "This may cause some compatibility issues when operating a high-loaded train." I continued reading finding some new interesting eng file parameters that I decided to try them out and found one of them which I am still trying and testing out in test units that appears to be the key to solving tractive forces. The key being MaxTractiveForceCurves, I tried it out by copying the table on the opt manual (pg34) in one of my test units being a C60AC in a eng file and still got the problem of it not pulling right even at run2 then saw my tractive effort decreasing slowly still stoped then notice an AC motor vs DC motor looking parameter ContinuousForceTimeFactor( 60 ) was being tested in my test unit.

Next I realized the traction forces were low in newtons and realized it was for a GE70Tonner as an example
I then decided to mess with the speeds and forces in the table and devide the max forces and continuous forces of a C60AC into throttle notch %. And it still being tested, I have this C60AC and C6044AC unit traction control software installed in my test eng file and am sofar impressed in a parameter the OR Team has developed making tractive effort the importance of a high or low horsepower unit and could not resist sharing. Bellow are the parameters bellow the end of my eng file as well as tractiveforcecurves notches being tested if anyone wants to try it out, but don't think the smoke effects are properly placed correctly if an OR team member can correct and make a doc please of that. DynamicBrakeForceCurves have not had it's true forces inserted and will be next to try and test.

NOTE. While you are to copy and paste the eng file sections bellow propperly over a template, I am not responsible for any damage done to your units and you are to make a backup or new test eng file to test this out in OR and not MSTS. If you don't have experience with eng file editing, you are recommended not to do this.

Comment ( GE Dash-8 and up Freight 90psi Controller/Brake Calibrations Composition Brake Shoe Equipped )
EngineControllers (
Throttle ( 0 1 0.125 0.
NumNotches ( 9
Notch ( 0 0 Dummy )
Notch ( 0.098 0 Dummy )
Notch ( 0.178 0 Dummy )
Notch ( 0.285 0 Dummy )
Notch ( 0.396 0 Dummy )
Notch ( 0.595 0 Dummy )
Notch ( 0.702 0 Dummy )
Notch ( 0.844 0 Dummy )
Notch ( 1.000 0 Dummy )
)
)
Brake_Engine ( 0 1 .1 1
NumNotches ( 2
Notch ( 0.0000 0 EngineBrakesControllerReleaseStart )
Notch ( 0.0125 1 EngineBrakesControllerApplyStart )
)
)
Brake_Train ( 0 1 0.0025 0.405
NumNotches ( 7
Notch ( 0.000 0 TrainBrakesControllerReleaseStart )
Notch ( 0.350 1 TrainBrakesControllerGraduatedSelfLapLimitedHoldin gStart )
Notch ( 0.455 0 TrainBrakesControllerFullServiceStart )
Notch ( 0.460 0 TrainBrakesControllerSuppressionStart )
Notch ( 0.465 0 TrainBrakesControllerContinuousServiceStart )
Notch ( 0.470 0 TrainBrakesControllerFullServiceStart )
Notch ( 0.500 0 TrainBrakesControllerEmergencyStart )
)
)
Brake_Dynamic ( 0 1 0.1111 0
NumNotches ( 10
Notch ( 0 0 Dummy )
Notch ( 0.1111 0 Dummy )
Notch ( 0.2222 0 Dummy )
Notch ( 0.3333 0 Dummy )
Notch ( 0.4444 0 Dummy )
Notch ( 0.5555 0 Dummy )
Notch ( 0.6666 0 Dummy )
Notch ( 0.7777 0 Dummy )
Notch ( 0.8888 0 Dummy )
Notch ( 0.9999 0 Dummy )
)
)
Combined_Control( 0 1 0.5 0.5 throttle dynamic )
DirControl ( -1 0 1 1 )
BellToggle( 0 1 0 )
AWS ( 0 1 0 )
Sanding ( 0 1 0 )
Horn ( 0 1 0 )
Wipers ( 0 1 0 )
EmergencyStopToggle( 0 1 0 )
Vigilance ( 0 1 0 )
Headlights ( 0 0.25 1 0 )
BailOffButton( 0 1 0 )
)
comment( fuel_level )
EngineVariables ( 5800 )
Sound ( "..\\..\\MC.SND\\MC_AC60V2\\UP_CW60ACcab.sms" )
Name ( "UP C60AC #7565 OR" )<<<<<<change this to your test units name
ExhaustColor(44rr)
IdleExhaust(5bb)
MaxExhaust(40rr)
ExhaustDynamics(4gg)
ExhaustTransientColor(50rr)
EmergencyCausesPowerDown
EmergencyCausesThrottleDown
EmergencyEngagesHorn
WheelSlipCausesThrottleDown
SlipWarningTreshold
Curtius_Kniffler( 0.77 0.87 2.0 0.7 )
ContinuousForceTimeFactor( 60 )
MaxTractiveForceCurves (
0 ( 0.77 0.87 2.0 0.7 )
0.098 (
0 87220
11.6 77220
14 69840
24 34920
35 13970
40 6980
50 349
75 140
)
0.178 (
0 158420
11.6 131720
14 27940
24 13969
35 5588
40 2794
50 1397
75 559
)
0.285 (
0 253650
11.6 210900
24 31430
35 12572
40 6287
50 3143
75 1257
)
0.396 (
0 352440
11.6 293040
35 22350
40 11175
50 5588
75 2235
)
0.595 (
0 529550
11.6 440300
35 34922
50 17461
60 8730
75 3492
)
0.702 (
0 624780
11.6 519480
25 50288
30 25144
50 12572
75 5029
)
0.844 (
0 751160
11.6 624560
35 68447
50 34223
60 17112
75 6845
)
1 (
0 890000
11.6 624560
35 89400
40 44700
60 22350
75 8940
)
)
)
DynamicBrakeForceCurves(
0 ( 0 0 50 0 )
.125 (
0 23125
.3 23125
1 6984
2 3492
5 1397
10 698
20 349
50 140
)
.25 (
0 46250
.61 46250
1 27940
2 13969
5 5588
10 2794
20 1397
50 559
)
.375 (
0 69375
.91 69375
2 31430
5 12572
10 6287
20 3143
50 1257
)
.5 (
0 92500
1.21 92500
5 22350
10 11175
20 5588
50 2235
)
.625 (
0 115625
1.51 115625
5 34922
10 17461
20 8730
50 3492
)
.75 (
0 138750
1.82 138750
5 50288
10 25144
20 12572
50 5029
)
.875 (
0 161875
2.12 161875
5 68447
10 34223
20 17112
50 6845
)
1 (
0 185000
2.42 185000
5 89400
10 44700
20 22350
50 8940
)
)
)

[UP_4848_Thunder]

Tried this on my ES44AC Test unit.

MaxTractiveForceCurves (
0 ( 0.76 0.85 2.0 0.7 )
0.105 (
0 85472.1
13.7 77532
14 69840
24 34920
35 13970
40 6980
50 349
75 140
)
0.224 (
0 182340.48
13.7 165401.6
14 27940
24 13969
35 5588
40 2794
50 1397
75 559
)
0.386 (
0 314211.72
13.7 285022.4
24 31430
35 12572
40 6287
50 3143
75 1257
)
0.496 (
0 403753.92
13.7 366246.4
35 22350
40 11175
50 5588
75 2235
)
0.595 (
0 484341.9
13.6 439348
35 34922
50 17461
60 8730
75 3492
)
0.702 (
0 571442.04
13.6 518356.8
25 50288
30 25144
50 12572
75 5029
)
0.844 (
0 687032.88
13.6 623209.6
35 68447
50 34223
60 17112
75 6845
)
1 (
0 814020
13.6 738400
35 89400
40 44700
60 22350
75 8940
)
)
)

[superheatedsteam]

Nice work. I was searching the OR site yesterday looking for the 'separate documentation' as stated in page 33 of the OpManual.pdf but couldn't find it.

If it's available, could someone advise where this documentation resides or could the OR team please post a heads up when this documentation is released?

Cheers,

Marek.

[MP36PH3S]

Thoroughly done-I'll have to consider this.

[UP_4848_Thunder]

Yea Merek, I whonder that too as it looks like we won't get any answers about it, or simply because I made this thread.

Testing this on a ES44AC got it figured that it won't exceed 75MPH (thats what speed I got with max speed 33.8 curve settings) with tractive effort regardless of Run notch or how many light engines have this same software.

MaxTractiveForceCurves (
0 ( 0.76 0.85 2.0 0 )
0.105 (
0 85472.1
13.6 77532
33.8 0
)
0.224 (
0 182340.5
13.6 165401.6
33.8 0
)
0.386 (
0 314211.7
13.6 285022.4
33.8 0
)
0.496 (
0 403753.9
13.6 366246.4
33.8 0
)
0.595 (
0 484341.9
13.6 439348
33.8 0
)
0.702 (
0 571442.0
13.6 518356.8
33.8 0
)
0.844 (
0 687032.88
13.6 623209.6
33.8 0
)
1 (
0 814020
13.6 738400
33.8 0
)
)
)


Tested this on a ES44AC with max speeds divided into throttle % making it a max speed set under control regardless if you are running a big number of the same units. More units of the same setting help get up to the max set speed faster then 1 alone.

MaxTractiveForceCurves (
0 ( 0.76 0.85 2.0 0 )
0.105 (
0 85472.1
1.428 77532
3.549 0
)
0.224 (
0 182340.5
3.05 165401.6
7.57 0
)
0.386 (
0 314211.7
5.25 285022.4
13.04 0
)
0.496 (
0 403753.9
6.75 366246.4
16.76 0
)
0.595 (
0 484341.9
8.11 439348
20.11 0
)
0.702 (
0 571442.0
9.55 518356.8
23.72 0
)
0.844 (
0 687032.88
11.47 623209.6
28.52 0
)
1 (
0 814020
13.6 738400
33.8 0
)
)
)

Some mix TE software settings can make engines not work well together where one locomotive reaches a certain speed and looses it's TE faster then another will make the loco with more TE to do all or most of the work. Try a mix lightpower move with a different curve setting and you will see what I mean by looking at the F5 Hud Force info. Now I see why some crews say some engines or brands don't work well together.

[mnjrr]

Nice work. I was searching the OR site yesterday looking for the 'separate documentation' as stated in page 33 of the OpManual.pdf but couldn't find it.

If it's available, could someone advise where this documentation resides or could the OR team please post a heads up when this documentation is released?

Cheers,

Marek.

Hi Marek,

As a member of the Open Rails team, I will inquire with the other members of the team if the "seperate documentation" exists at this time.

[UP_4848_Thunder]

Another thing I knoticed is Horsepower or kW (Maxpower) is not used at all in OR 0.8.0 because I deleted the horsepower to 0 and train pulled normal using just force alone same as if it had it. Is that normal?

[muskokaandtahoe]

UP_4848_Thunder, a question for you: What happens when you use that modified ,eng file in MSTS?

[UP_4848_Thunder]

UP_4848_Thunder, a question for you: What happens when you use that modified ,eng file in MSTS?

Dave, MSTS does not read the new parameters and runs with no errors and uses it's original parameters and doe's not pop any errors on my end when I place the OR values above the descriptions of engines.

[UP_4848_Thunder]

Tried testing out the speeds and think I have found my question if I am not mistaken is that OR is set in the tractive curves is speed vs force is power? Tried these on a ES44AC bellow telling there descriptions.

192 ton ES44AC Max Starting force at 6.12 without continuous force will not exceed 13.7 MPH regardless of Run when TE speed has reached 13.7MPH (ES44AC Max starting force of 183,000 Ibs @ 13.7MPH).

MaxTractiveForceCurves (
0 ( 0.76 0.85 2.0 0 )
0.105 (
0 85472.1
6.1 85472.1
6.12 0
)
0.224 (
0 182340.5
6.1 182340.5
6.12 0
)
0.386 (
0 314211.7
6.1 314211.7
6.12 0
)
0.496 (
0 403753.9
6.1 403753.9
6.12 0
)
0.595 (
0 484341.9
6.1 484341.9
6.12 0
)
0.702 (
0 571442.0
6.1 571442.0
6.12 0
)
0.844 (
0 687032.88
6.1 687032.88
6.12 0
)
1 (
0 814020
6.1 814020
6.12 0
)
)
)


192 ton ES44AC Max Starting force at 6.12 will decrease TE starting at 13.7MPH where continuous force kicks in decreasing TE after 13.7MPH not exceeding 34.0 which is 75MPH regardless of Run or how many of the same units so equiped. (ES44AC Max starting force of 183,000 Ibs, a max continuous force of 166,000 Ibs @ 13.7MPH).

MaxTractiveForceCurves (
0 ( 0.76 0.85 2.0 0 )
0.105 (
0 85472.1
6.1 85472.1
6.12 77532
34.0 0
)
0.224 (
0 182340.5
6.1 182340.5
6.12 165401.6
34.0 0
)
0.386 (
0 314211.7
6.1 314211.7
6.12 285022.4
34.0 0
)
0.496 (
0 403753.9
6.1 403753.9
6.12 366246.4
34.0 0
)
0.595 (
0 484341.9
6.1 484341.9
6.12 439348
34.0 0
)
0.702 (
0 571442.0
6.1 571442.0
6.12 518356.8
34.0 0
)
0.844 (
0 687032.88
6.1 687032.88
6.12 623209.6
34.0 0
)
1 (
0 814020
6.1 814020
6.12 738400
34.0 0
)
)
)

[UP_4848_Thunder]

186 ton ES44DC Max Starting force at 6.12 will decrease TE starting at 13.7MPH where continuous force kicks in decreasing TE after 13.7MPH not exceeding 32.0 which is 70MPH regardless of Run or how many of the same units so equiped. (ES44DC Max starting force of 142,000 Ibs, a max continuous force of 109,000 Ibs @ 13.7MPH). Didn't get as much slipping as a ES44AC even though tons play a good role in good adhesion the heavier the unit is to reduce wheel slip. BTW sanding in OR helps at all speeds if sanding is set to a desired max speed it is used.

MaxTractiveForceCurves (
0 ( 0.76 0.85 2.0 0 )
0.105 (
0 66323.25
6.1 66323.25
6.12 50910.3
32.0 0
)
0.224 (
0 141489.6
6.1 141489.6
6.12 108608.64
32.0 0
)
0.386 (
0 243816.9
6.1 243816.9
6.12 187155.96
32.0 0
)
0.496 (
0 313298.4
6.1 313298.4
6.12 240490.56
32.0 0
)
0.595 (
0 375831.75
6.1 375831.75
6.12 288491.7
32.0 0
)
0.702 (
0 443418.3
6.1 443418.3
6.12 340371.72
32.0 0
)
0.844 (
0 533112.6
6.1 533112.6
6.12 409221.84
32.0 0
)
1 (
0 631650.0
6.1 631650.0
6.12 484860.0
32.0 0
)
)
)

Been trying to get the Dynamic Brake curves but OR is not reading it properly interfering with throttle. Any info or doc on this OR team?

Off to making some C4 Force seeing why BNSF keeps getting them

[UP_4848_Thunder]

Been a while and it looks empty. Even though I released a while ago a demo test unit representing this new OR Parameter, I am still advance testing these TE on different locos including mixed power cons. Even tried the testing on a P40DC.

SD70ACe

MaxTractiveForceCurves (
0 ( 0.67 0.85 2 0 )
0.063 (
0 53525.43
5.2 53525.43
5.3 43997.31
32.3 0
)
0.120 (
0 101953.2
5.2 101953.2
5.3 83804.4
32.3 0
)
0.250 (
0 212402.5
5.2 212402.5
5.3 174592.5
32.3 0
)
0.340 (
0 288867.4
5.2 288867.4
5.3 237445.8
32.3 0
)
0.553 (
0 469834.33
5.2 469834.33
5.3 386198.61
32.3 0
)
0.700 (
0 594727
5.2 594727
5.3 488859
32.3 0
)
0.860 (
0 730664.6
5.2 730664.6
5.3 600598.2
32.3 0
)
1 (
0 849610
5.2 849610
5.3 698370
32.3 0
)
)
)

P40DC

MaxTractiveForceCurves (
0 ( 0.49 0.69 2 0 )
0.125 (
0 35125.0
17.1 35125.0
46.0 20250.0
46.1 0
)
0.25 (
0 70250.0
17.1 70250.0
46.0 40500.0
46.1 0
)
0.375 (
0 105375.0
17.1 105375.0
46.0 60750.0
46.1 0
)
0.5 (
0 140500.0
17.1 140500.0
46.0 81000.0
46.1 0
)
0.625 (
0 175625.0
17.1 175625.0
46.0 101250.0
46.1 0
)
0.75 (
0 210750.0
17.1 210750.0
46.0 121500.0
46.1 0
)
0.875 (
0 245875.0
17.1 245875.0
46.0 141750.0
46.1 0
)
1 (
0 281000.0
17.1 281000.0
46.0 162000.0
46.1 0
)
)
)

BTW did Amtrak's P40DC come in speed control run notches (cruise control like) to set a speed?