High speed and little power, a problem

[lindsayts]

I have come across a small problem in OR V0.7. Some consists take very little power to maintain high speed. If one brings Up the "shift F5" forces HUD there are three forces concerned with the problem, these are

Coupler force
Axle out force
Axle drive force.

On a loco that works correctly these forces change as one would expect. On a loco that exhibts the problem when one starts out and opens the throttle all three of the forces increase. As one speeds up the Axle out and Axle drive forces decrease but the Coupler force does not. The throttle position is some how tied up with "Axle out force" but the Coupler force appears to control accelartion hilll climbing etc. So one in effect gets a loco that will travel at high speed as the Coupler force is high but at a very low throttle setting as the Axle drive force is low.

I have established that it is the loco that is causing the problem but have as yet to establish which (if any) of the eng parameters is causing the problem and I wonder if the OR developers have any clue here.

Any help will be greatly appreciated

An N class loco (VLine N class DE) works OK

CVW 3rd series X class exhibts the problem, unfortunately this is no longer availble for download.
The is one other I think is bring up the problem, SE 180107 Grand Central, a DEMU (I think).

Lindsay

[lindsayts]

Are the OR developers interested in bug reports such as these as there has been no acknowledgement....................... no point in talking if no one is listening...................







Any way I figured out what is causing this, If a motive force unit such as a loco or a DMU is flipped the tractive effort produced by the flipped unit only depends on the throttle position and does NOT vary with speed at all. So for say a push pull set with a loco on the front and a flipped loco on the rear the tractive effort of the rear unit does NOT vary with speed by only with the throttle position the tractive staying at the starting level. So if a flipped unit has a starting tractive effort of 150,000 newtons this is what its tractive effort will stay at at notch 8 inspite of any change in speed. For a multiple DMU all units will behave properly except for the rear unit which is flipped. If in a DMU consist in which no unit is flipped behaves properly.

Lindsay

[GoGoran]

Are the OR developers interested in bug reports such as these as there has been no acknowledgement....................... no point in talking if no one is listening...................

Any way I figured out what is causing this, If a motive force unit such as a loco or a DMU is flipped the tractive effort produced by the flipped unit only depends on the throttle position and does NOT vary with speed at all. So for say a push pull set with a loco on the front and a flipped loco on the rear the tractive effort of the rear unit does NOT vary with speed by only with the throttle position the tractive staying at the starting level. So if a flipped unit has a starting tractive effort of 150,000 newtons this is what its tractive effort will stay at at notch 8 inspite of any change in speed. For a multiple DMU all units will behave properly except for the rear unit which is flipped. If in a DMU consist in which no unit is flipped behaves properly. Lindsay

Hi Lindsay,

I am sure the developpers are carefully reading this forum whenever they find the time and that they will incorporate your (and everybody else's) valuable findings as soon as possible into the OR code. You really found out something important there, keep up the good work !

[twpol]

Are the OR developers interested in bug reports such as these as there has been no acknowledgement....................... no point in talking if no one is listening...................

Please don't let some silence stop you reporting problems! Generally speaking, I'll reply to anything I know about (usually the graphical side) but not things I don't (such as physics here). I would expect that's common to most of us.

[OTTODAD]

It has been a long time since before MSTSBin fixed the in curves incorrectly turning bogies of "flipped" locos I have "reversed" some locos and some like ICE and TGV lead cars were supplied that way so that they could be used at the rear of their trainsets.

I am not aware of MSTSBin "flipping" a loco has any effect on the tractive effort of a trainset, I am using many off, using "flipped" diesels as helpers at the rear of long freight trains.

O t t o

[GoGoran]

The threadstarter is talking about OR 0.7, not MSTS, with or without Bin-Patch.

[lindsayts]

The threadstarter is talking about OR 0.7, not MSTS, with or without Bin-Patch.

This is correct.

It is definitely the flipped loco/locos causing the problem. On one of the faulty consists I straightened out the flipped loco on the rear of the set and the consist then behaved correctly.

Lindsay

[lindsayts]

Please don't let some silence stop you reporting problems! Generally speaking, I'll reply to anything I know about (usually the graphical side) but not things I don't (such as physics here). I would expect that's common to most of us.

It may be worth while for the developers to consider a system to acknowledge bug reports. In Linux projects where I do most of my development work it is common for developers to ignore trivial and also negative/hostile posts (Note 1) but I have yet to find one that will not acknowedge a bug report, particularly if person reporting the bug has clearly gone to some effort.

Note 1: In a popular project possibly such as OR it is likely that you as a developer simply cannot respond to all posts AND live your life AND work on the project concerned, remember these people are VOLUNTEERS.

Lindsay

[OTTODAD]

The threadstarter is talking about OR 0.7, not MSTS, with or without Bin-Patch.

And I am pointing out that there are also REVERSED locos and REVERSED leading trainset wagons.

Does ORTS have a problem with them too ?

O t t o

[GoGoran]

And I am pointing out that there are also REVERSED locos and REVERSED leading trainset wagons.

Does ORTS have a problem with them too ?

O t t o

That doesn't have anything to do with the topic at hand, since how in the world would OR "know" that a loco was reversed ?

Reversing a shape in SFM only affects the shape. It cannot affect the performance or physics of any loco in the sim.

Flipping via a consist file is a different story altogether.

[OTTODAD]

That doesn't have anything to do with the topic at hand, since how in the world would OR "know" that a loco was reversed ? Reversing a shape in SFM only affects the shape. It cannot affect the performance or physics of any loco in the sim.

Running a 4 + 100 + 4 freight train with MSTSBin "flipped" up the Marias Pass in my Gold-Spike-X in ORTS without any problems has to do with the topic at hand.

I did not only reverse some of my diesels with the SFM, I also modified their *.ENG files.

Ask Marc Nelson how to do that, as it was him and Paul Gausden who taught me years ago !

O t t o

[GoGoran]

Running a 4 + 100 + 4 freight train with MSTSBin "flipped" up the Marias Pass in my Gold-Spike-X in ORTS without any problems has to do with the topic at hand.

Why should you have any problems there ? Lindsay reported that the flipped locos delivered full pull (kN) throughout the whole speed range, instead of having it decrease as the speed rises. So in OR, a flipped loco pulls more than a non-flipped one, with the maximum tractive effort translating into a truly continuous one. Makes for a jolly good ride over Maria's Pass for sure.

Good night, Otto. I know you're one of the veterans around here, and I respect that, but sometimes you should really read what you write before posting it, since you're not making much sense here. Or read the first post of a thread attentively, to begin with.

[lindsayts]

The way I picked out the solution is to bring up the "forces" page on the hud ([shift] F5 twice) and looked at the forces produced by the individual locos. Certainly in my case there was no difficulty in seeing the problem (once I had figured out what to look for). The problem will not manifest itself well during acelaration or in climbing grades as under these circumstances the consist is usually at full throttle and not at high speed. It gets real serious on DMU's on level track as all vehicles are powered and as the flipped machines are running at much higher powers all the others have to be back to a much lower power to make up for it. In the three instances I have tried ,a 4 car DMU the rear car flipped, a six car DMU the rear car flipped and a push pull 6 car pass the rear loco flipped (Note 1), it resulted in all three consists being able to do 130KPH on Notch 2 instead of notch 4. The problem also occurs in both my PC's running OR version 0.7 (I have not got around to setting the latest version on my third machine). On the third consist mentioned I re flipped the rear loco around the same as the front loco and the consist worked correctly.

Note 1: These are used by VLine in Victoria Australia for peak hour pass sevices from large close to Melbourne country towns, the usual consist being a P class on either end with 6 car H set in between. From what I have heard pulling the 27 wire cables for the multi-unit operation for the two locos through the carriages was a REAL exersize by the maintence staff. "Locotrol" is NOT used of course.

Lindsay