Open Rails No Longer Fun!!!

[hminky]

I know that Open Rails is big on physics but it is becoming un-drivable.

The Articulateds in Donner pass just spin the wheels on the articulated engine. It was difficult to get them moving in V646 but is impossible in the latest version.

The Marias Pass Grain Train Thru the Night required adding another loco to keep from sliding down the hill in V645.

On the Ozark Northern it is impossible to run some of the activities because of wheel slippage.

I use V360 because it still is fun to "play". It loses some of the features but isn't "work".

Great work with Open Rails which makes MSTS usable.

Harold

[apostle282]

sorry to hear your problems with OR, but as they say at McDonald's "i'm lovin it "

[hminky]

sorry to hear your problems with OR, but as they say at McDonald's "i'm lovin it "

I love Open Rails. It is the only reason I have MSTS on my computer. When I bought MSTS two years ago, I thought MSTS was dreadful and still do.

It is just frustrating that certain locomotives and activities don't run well on the latest version due to the physics.

If it only had a route editor it would be perfect. It is the best sim available for driving trains.

Harold

[apostle282]

Agreed !!! yea i had a few routes and locos that would not work, but after looking at the error logs i did a little editing to the rolling stock and routes and problem solved !!

[hminky]

Agreed !!! yea i had a few routes and locos that would not work, but after looking at the error logs i did a little editing to the rolling stock and routes and problem solved !!

Done that too! The problems with Donner and Ozark don't show up in the logs.

Harold

EDIT: Redid the .eng files for the one of the articulateds in Donner and solved the problem. Added weight and matched the friction in the articulated engine now the wheels don't spin wildly. Now have to do the others.

MSTS file system is great.

[apostle282]

Ahh i see , well i hope you get to enjoy it as you so desire !

[conductorchris]

It may be that in a new environment, previously unnoticed problems with equipment will become more obvious. Though open rails may prompt your becoming aware of them, the fault could be elsewhere -- or it could just be that the equipment is so old it was before stuff was even figured out. Doesn't change the frustration, I know.

[lindsayts]

A couple of points,

I have found a good portion of locomotives particulalry steam locos (note 1) are not very well setup in the ENG file, the OR physcics is now quite different to MSTS and I have found it is required on quite a few occasions to edit the eng files to get the vehicle to "play ball"

Second point OR is in very active development it is very likely we can expect this sort of thing for some time to come.

I have done a great deal of research into steam locomotive performance if anyone is interested I will post details of the setup procedure I use to get steam locos to behave reasonably accurately in OR, this version anyway!.

Note 1: As far as I can see it is apparent the steam locomotives in particular are NOT well understood. Part of the problem here is very little accurate performance data has been published, most data availble being calculated. I have found it common that the grate area is not published in locomotive lists. This is a CRITICAL parameter as steam locos generate the power in the firebox.

Lindsay

[apostle282]

Very useful info buddy !

[farrmp]

YES, lindsayts- please do post details of your Steam Loco Setup procedure.
I too, have spent much time tuning .ENG files for more realistic operation in MSTS. Most notably I have changed adhesion to make my loco's a little more slippery. Interestingly, I have NOT had problems with Wheel Slip in Open Rails and am quite happy with OR Steam Physics in general!

Paul

[muskokaandtahoe]

May I recommend that you not invest too time in tweeking steam locomotive .eng files? The next release might have some important changes. Also, there have been changes in the wheel slip code as well and so unless there is some locomotive that's driving you nuts, I suggest you let that issue ride for a while as well.

[lindsayts]

May I recommend that you not invest too time in tweeking steam locomotive .eng files? The next release might have some important changes. Also, there have been changes in the wheel slip code as well and so unless there is some locomotive that's driving you nuts, I suggest you let that issue ride for a while as well.

I am well aware of the progress in the various prime mover simulautions in OR. I have been playing around with this sort of thing now for at least 3 years and it is now basicly second nature and little effort. I have also only played with parameters that OR has made serious changes in, as determined by testing, ie I have NOT looked in the source. One reason I admit I am doing this is to keep independant track of the direction the rolling stock physics group are moving in.

Another thing is REALLY like my locos to behave correctly even if the changes are only for a few months. If a simulator cannot produce accurate results what is the point of it.

Remember each of us is likely using the simulator for different reasons and the changes to the eng file for decent accurate(ish) performance are minimal. The OR teams progress particularly for the steam loco simulation being very good.

"What is food for one man may be bitter poison to others" Attributed to the latin writer Lucretius first century BC.

Lindsay

[muskokaandtahoe]

Just sayin in case your time could go better into other productive avenues, but if fiddlin is what makes your day, go to it!

[OTTODAD]

Yes, playing the waiting game is what I am doing.

No point messing with countless settings variations in MSTS support files until ORTS has reached a certain maturity, having taken care of the most fundamental ones.

In the meantime all reports of what is not working as is should will help the team to check it out !

O t t o

[lindsayts]

The following info is essentaily the result of an almost 20 year long interest in the performance of rail vehciles in general and steam locomotives in particular. I have managed to get quite a good technical library on steam with a good bit of detail on performance. One hopes this sort of thing is of interest to someone including the OR people.

The lococmotives in question here are superheated steam with whats called radial valve gear ie Walscheasrts and baker etc. The locos also need to be well respected by the crews, be in good to excellent condition, supplied with high quality stores (water and fuel) and be driven by crews that knew what they were doing. It is probably worth while mentioning here that steam locos could vary quite widely in performance if any of the above were not up to standard.

I found there are two main paramaters worth looking at, these being ".BoilerVolume" and "MaxBoilerOutput" but first it is worthwhile checking the values below.....

SuperHeater ( 1.20 )
BoilerEffectivity ( 1.531 )
DraftingEffect ( 1.0 )
BlastExponent ( 0.65 )
BoilerResponsiveness ( 1.2 )

The values need not be these exactly but some where close to them would be fine. I have not done a great deal of testing of different valuse of these due to the changing nature of OR but I have found the above values give a loco that drives well but does still need to be driven. That is one cannot simply open the throttle and forget about everything else.

The first major parameter to consider is "BoilerVolume" the great effect this has on the sim is new to OR v0.6.2, before this version the parameter apparently having little effect. The effect of this paramete is if it is to small the boiler pressure drops VERY quickly when the throttle is opened. I have quite a number of locos with this value way to small. I use the total volumne of the boiler from the front of the fire box to the rear of the smoke box. For a loco weighing 145 ton (100 tons adhsive weight) this volumne works out to about BoilerVolume ( "1000*(ft^3)" )

The second value under consideration is "MaxBoilerOutput", this being the key parameter for power out pout both in the sim and in real life. Now a real loco of the type mentioned in the introduction will produce a power out put of around 50 BHP per square ft of grate area __WITHOUT__ encountering excessive wear. The steam required for this sort of BHP will be in the order of 10 to 11 lbs per bhp per hour. To work out the steam required for a particularl loco, lets take for example the Victorian Railways H220. This has a grate area of 68 square feet.

68 x 50 = 3400BHP. the steam required for this is 3400 x 11 = 37,400 lbs per hour. The perfromance of this loco published in the VR test reports on the comminsioning of the loco, power outputs ranged around 3400 to 3600BHP at the tender drawbar. Maximum oouput of its boiler in the Newport (Melbourne) workshops test faciluty was a shade under 38,000 lbs per hour, so we in the right neibhourhood.

For OR v0.6.2 this value is not sufficient for accurate performance I have found it is required to multiply this value by around 1.8 to get the required drawbar hp. So now e have 37,400 X 1.8 = 67,320 lbs per hour. The line in the eng file being "MaxBoilerOutput ( 67320lb/h )"

Extemsive testing with these values show a good match for power output in the speed range from 30 to 70MPH. the steam consumption is of course to high but it does correctly increase at slow speeds. At 10 MPH the power out being in the order of 1500BHP for the "MaxBoilerOutput", the power being reasonably close to reality at the speed.

The above procdeure has been aplied to around 10 locos with little problem, in a number cases the adjustments making the loco a far beter engine to drive. Note you do have to drive the engine, the boiler pressure dropping as the steam flow increases. Makes the absence of a graphical pressure gauge a real downer.

I do not class this as a definitive answer to the perfromance problem but it is a step in the right direction. Comments and adjustments most welcome.

Lindsay