Removing reliance on MSTS default route data.

[jeff9595]

There's a very interesting and important discussion initiated by Doug Kightly going on over at UKTrainsim with the above title... http://forums.uktrainsim.com/viewtop...f=324&t=111495. You might have spotted it...

The Open Rails team has been following the thread with great interest. While we haven't come to a conclusion regarding the best distribution method, we did want to provide the project with some technical guidance to avoid any dead ends.

Going forward Open Rails will continue to support the MSTS shape file (.s ). In the future, the Open Rails Development Team will specify and document a strategic format for describing shapes which may include an additional format beyond the currently supported shape file.

Regarding texturing, Open Rails will support the MSTS ace file (.ace) as well as DDS (.dds). The following guidelines are offered to help the community understand the performance impact of DDS encoding choices:

• For full fidelity, R8G8B8/A8R8G8B8 (no alpha/alpha). Maximum GPU VRAM usage.
• For best compression, DXT1/3/5 (no alpha/non-graduated alpha/graduated alpha). Minimum GPU VRAM usage.

We hope this provides the community with concrete technical guidance for this important community project while we work on the ideal distribution strategy.

The Open Rails team
...............................................
Jeff Bush
(newly minted) Head of Communications

[OTTODAD]

Hi Jeff !

Jeff Bush of MSTS COSMOS fame ?

Congratulations on your appointment and all the best trying to make some of us train simulator programming dummies understand what ORTS are trying to do.

ACE and DDS files are also being used by Railworks and I use PAINT.NET and PSP to hack some of it's shapes with the help of Mike Simpson's RW_Tools.

Now there is a guy who could be of help to ORTS ?

O t t o

[jeff9595]

The very same, OTTO. I couldn't stay away when I saw what these folks are trying to do... provide a future for all the incredible content we've created over the years, since June 2001. And go forward. Too exciting for words!

Jeff.....................

[mestevet]

Having scanned through the UKTrainSim thread (but I won't say that I sat down and read in depth), I see that the gist of this is similar to something I was thinking when I brought this up last summer:

https://www.trainsim.com/vbts/showthread.php?293381-Add-ons-requiring-original-MSTS-content&highlight=Open+rails

The conclusion I came to was that the modelers among us should start, perhaps sooner rather than later, building replacement shapes, textures, etc. for the MSTS default content that can be used, free and clear of MSTS.

My question is: Who is going to coordinate the effort? If, as they state in the UKTrainSim thread, there are 800 shapes needing reconstruction (~1300 minus the track shapes that have been replaced by Xtracks, as has been suggested), I don't see that as being an insurmountable obstacle to replace them all, including textures, with original replacements. If we had 10 capable modelers, each tackling 80 shapes, many of which could be exceedingly simple, I dare say the entire catalog of original MSTS shapes could be banged out in a matter of weeks. And maybe the UK guys will take care of the European stuff and reduce the workload on us Americans. We'd just have to play "rock-paper-scissors" to see who'd take care of the rest of it.

Of course that leaves terrain textures, cab textures, sounds, .sms files, etc. But I think those could be dealt with too.

What is needed is someone to spearhead the effort, organize a crew of modelers, organize and distribute the work and "check" it afterward. We would also need a team of "vetted" folks who we can trust to both: a) do a quality job b) make original replacements, not cheated duplicates

In some cases, perhaps the only thing needed is to identify an existing alternative, get permission to use it, and re-name it to correspond with the original MSTS content it's replacing - trees are just one thing that come to mind that have ample alternates that already exist.

That seems along the lines of what the UKTrainSimmers are suggesting, and I agree...

Steve

[OTTODAD]

That seems along the lines of what the UKTrainSimmers are suggesting, and I agree...

So do I, but will take a long time to achieve, creators having to do that in their spare time.

I think that a project manager is being looked for and there again has to have plenty of time to spare to do his job !

Once more of ORTS' capabilities are being shown then that could motivate some to start converting MSTS objects to the graphics used by ORTS as is happening with TRAINZ and MSTS objects to RW conversions like ICE and others have done ?

O t t o

[GoGoran]

Making OR independent of MSTS should be a long-term goal only, since MSTS is still readily available in the shops as value software. It is neither a budget nor a time problem to get a legal and new copy of MSTS for 10 bucks at WalMart.

The OR team should rather focus on making their sim work first, i.e. bring it up from pre-alpha status to a first fully-functional public release !

[mestevet]

Please forward the address of the WalMart where it's currently available for $10.

My understanding was that the last time any WalMart had it available was in 2008.

Steve

[GoGoran]

Please forward the address of the WalMart where it's currently available for $10.
My understanding was that the last time any WalMart had it available was in 2008.

Steve

Actually I don't know about Walmart, but here in Germany you can buy it practically everywhere for exactly 9.95 Euros, it's in the value software pyramid in all bigger supermarkets and tech stores, together with other old classic games (i.e. 2-3 years and older).

The tech stores also have a wide range of MSTS Addons on their shelves, mostly from German Railroads and ProTrain.

[mestevet]

Great, but a ticket to Frankfurt from Philadelphia is currently about $680 (gee, I would've expected a lot more than that), plus the fact that I don't speak German, so I'd say that obtaining a legal copy that way for most folks in the US and Canada (the majority of TrainSim.com users) isn't going to be an economical solution.

Right now, looking at Amazon.com, I'm seeing the following prices for a new copy of MSTS: $91.98, $99.98, $103.98, $99.99, $88.93, another $99.99. On Ebay, in the "Buy it Now" category, the prices are: $88.74, $89.89, and a few for $74.95. There is one up for auction with a starting price of $35.50, but with no bids so far, we'll have to see what it finally sells for (I've been seeing them regularly go for over $70).

Instead of looking at "right now", I look at how the availability of MSTS has slowly dried up over time. Simple economics tells us that as something gets less available, the price goes up. Sure, if you're motivated, even $75 isn't that bad, and maybe you'd get lucky and find a copy on Ebay for less than $40. But the issue is that it's getting more and more difficult to find at a reasonable price. What that tells me is that at some point in the future, maybe a few years from now, it might become almost impossible to find (what if there's a "run" on the available copies when "OR" really takes hold?). Would you be willing to pay $250 for that rare copy of MSTS just so you could run OR?

My point is that, from a strategic standpoint, IT MAKES SENSE TO THINK ABOUT ENABLING Open Rails TO BE FREE OF ORIGINAL MSTS DEFAULT CONTENT BEFORE IT BECOMES AN EMERGENCY. Why not leisurely start creating MSTS replacement models now, so that we CAN "abandon" MSTS default content if and when it becomes necessary? I AM NOT, nor was I in my original posting on the topic last summer, suggesting that the Open Rails team be responsible for this effort, although I think they have a vested interest.

Steve

{I for one, would contribute some of my modeling time to doing just this, but I don't want an uncoordinated effort. I don't want to start off making stuff and find out some guy in Germany was doing the same thing. That's wasted time}

[OTTODAD]

Having purchased an EXPLOSIV version of MSTS from Play.com UK for £ 10 a some time ago, to have a second copy of it in case the original CDs get faulty, I now find that it's price has also gone up to £ 24.95 !

Looks like there is more demand now and MSTS is not longer discounted ?

O t t o

[GoGoran]

It's incredible that MSTS sells for 100.-- in the US, even now, ten years after it's initial publishing date ! I couldn't have imagined that. In Europe, as a rule you can find any new game after two, three or five years (if it's a real top seller) in the value range for 5 - 15.-- bucks, brandnew and fresh from the factory.

Look at the German Amazon.de page - prices for the new MSTS start at 9.98, and used you can buy it for 3.50 Euros in good condition: http://tinyurl.com/2v7la7y

That is 8.40 Euros for you Americans, without VAT !
And I just checked out the shipping costs to the US: 14.-- Euros !

So for 22.40 Euros total you can order a new copy of MSTS from Amazon's Germany division !
That is 29.82 US-Dollars at current exchange rates !

And you can pay easily with your credit card !

[OTTODAD]

Do they ship outside Germany, UK Amazon does not outside the UK, probably because most countries have Amazon branches of their own ?

O t t o

[GoGoran]

Do they ship outside Germany, UK Amazon does not outside the UK, probably because most countries have Amazon branches of their own ?

O t t o

As I said, I just checked it all out and placed a mock order to America - I just deleted it before the last confirmation, otherwise the UCSB would be happy to receive my present in the next 14 days !

It's 14.-- Euros shipping costs to America, confirmed !

[OTTODAD]

Thanks for checking that out which should be of use to all who want to purchase MSTS for shipment to the US !

The last complete MSTSBin install master is available from my web site.

Long live MSTS !

O t t o

[jeff9595]

My question is: Who is going to coordinate the effort? If, as they state in the UKTrainSim thread, there are 800 shapes needing reconstruction (~1300 minus the track shapes that have been replaced by Xtracks, as has been suggested), I don't see that as being an insurmountable obstacle to replace them all, including textures, with original replacements. If we had 10 capable modelers, each tackling 80 shapes, many of which could be exceedingly simple, I dare say the entire catalog of original MSTS shapes could be banged out in a matter of weeks. And maybe the UK guys will take care of the European stuff and reduce the workload on us Americans. We'd just have to play "rock-paper-scissors" to see who'd take care of the rest of it.

Of course that leaves terrain textures, cab textures, sounds, .sms files, etc. But I think those could be dealt with too.

What is needed is someone to spearhead the effort, organize a crew of modelers, organize and distribute the work and "check" it afterward. We would also need a team of "vetted" folks who we can trust to both: a) do a quality job b) make original replacements, not cheated duplicates

The ORTS team feels reluctant to add this role to the task they've set for themselves for reasons of both support and being in the position to certify the copyright clearance of the resulting items. Instead, a different model suggests itself, one which is really in our train sim community's mainstream tradition.

You've made reference to the track elements that are replaced by the XTracks library. Other principal libraries are YTracks and Newroads, and in addition, literally thousands of potential replacement items have already been produced which could be renamed and placed into libraries. The important concept here is that no single "library" be expected to simply replace the MSTS default items, but, rather as with route specifications today, the route builder specify the library or set of libraries which he/she feels best suits the route they've conceived. It's normal to specify that "Cleveland and Chicago RR" REQUIRES XTracks. A future spec might say REQUIRES Library 6 or Library 8, all readily available from the file libraries as Xtracks is now.

This seems most in keeping with the framework of the ORTS spirit. It removes the "lock" that the default MSTS content has on route builders, and really gives the community builders an open ended freedom to create content. Sure, it will take a while to evolve complete replacement content for the MSTS defaults. But we'll do it the way this community does all its work... according to each person's individual impulse. It's been working this way since June 2001... seems to work rather well.


Jeff..........................
OpenRails Train Sim team