ORTS and other sims.

[drjayyy]

I was looking at some Trainz 2009 & 10 screenshots and at least to me they seem to be hard to distinguish from ORTS . Im sure you've been asked this before but is there the possibilty in the future of a collaboration or combination of rolling stock ,scenery etc ? I know ORTS is still a WIP but the thought this seems great.

[longiron]

Jay,
I sincerely doubt it. As you know, each train sim - Trainz, MSTS/OR, and RW - has an entirely separate format for their content. It's a strategy designed to lock you into a particular train sim software package. If there was a common content format, then the train sim software developers would be forced to compete based on their sim, not which route or what content was available. As a result, I imagine there would be less choice in sim platforms than we have today.

[OTTODAD]

Trainz tracks have nothing in common with other train simulators and right up to TRS-2010 I turns my stomach having to look at tracks like these below !

I sure hope that ORTS using MSTS X-Ttracks can improve on their appearance, helped by some of their creators !

O t t o

[drjoe]

Mike, don't be so sensitive. Sorry that Trainz hasn't gotten the "looks" here, but the original Trainz even advertized itself as a Model Railroad Simulator. The route building system ( Surveyor ) still uses the term baseboards which is a model railroading term ( the other sims use the term "tiles", no real difference, but the name affects perception ). The track system for Trainz is visually "behind" all the other sims. I am in the process of trying to install the new Eastern Kentucky route, which appears to have checkrails, etc. added. I will see when I get it installed. But, not all the routes have them.

Here are my rankings ( note, these are just my opinion and Open Rails not included because it is an unfinished and only beta-released product ):

Physics ( not "out of the box", but modified ):
1 MSTS, 2 Trainz, 3 RW2 ( haven't figured out all that's necessary to make them right, but has potential ) ORTS will probably at least equal MSTS, and will surely be easily "improved"

Graphics :
1 RW2, 2 Trainz, 3 MSTS. ORTS looks to equal Trainz ( and maybe RW2 since Trainz is very close to RW2 with better "objects" )

Operations:
1 Trainz, 2 MSTS, 3 RW2


Some comments on the rankings: As far as physics, MSTS is the easiest for me to understand and modify. But, RW2 and Trainz both have great potential with the possibility of scripting being used to modify the default parameters. Trainz leads RW2 simply because Trainz has some information explaining scripting. I have found nothing usefully instructive about using scripting in RW2 ( but examining the new Russian equipment may be a way to start ). Trainz is not too far behind RW2 in graphics, but I see two problems for Trainz. One is that many default objects that are still used in routes are not equal to those in RW2. Simply RW2 is a newer sim, and Trainz allows some compatibility with previous versions. The second problem is that on a computer that handles MSTS and RW2 quite well, a graphically intense Trainz 2010 route is giving me trouble ( and there is that matter of the "ugly" track switches ). Why did I rate Trainz number 1 in operations? Simply that Trainz has a superb system for controlling AI trains, allowing drop offs and pickups by freight AI, as well as good passenger AI operations. In general, the AI trains in Trainz obey the signalling system ( which can be modified ), and can "figure out" most "problems". MSTS comes in second just because it seems to handle single track signalling and AI better than RW2. RW2 trains don't seem to "see" signals in a correct operational way, that is signals seem to reflect where an AI has gone, but don't truly control the AI train. There are scenario writers who have mastered RW2 "quirks" to create quite realistic meets, but the system is not as flexible as the one in Trainz. All of the "developing" sims would do well to at least study the Trainz system for AI and incorporate similar features.

Hope this helps in evaluating the different sims. Just my opinions.

[OTTODAD]

Usual anti Trainz rubbish from someone that knows nothing about the sim.

I had TRAINZ since it's day-1 and nothing they have released since has improved this tracks rubbish. Find OTTODAD in their forums !

Trying TRS-2010, the tracks I am showing are from, it was me who supplied this idiotic moving in the wind trees fix to the TRS community.

Enough said !

O t t o

[longiron]

Let's please get back to the topic - inoperability of content between train sims - or lack thereof.

[drjayyy]

I have all three sims Trainz 2009 ,MSTS and Railworks2. It would be great to combine the best parts of the three into one.Thanks for the reply Chris

p.s.Impatiently waiting for the next version of ORTS.

[lindsayts]

A couple of points on the subject...............

Using objects designed for other programs can be very tricky as it depends on what info has been included in the file format and what info the destination program requires and what format it requires it in. This sometimes makes importing such items very difficult to impossible.
The 3D program Blender can import and export using over 20 formats my expierence is that you cannot convert between a significant number of these formats due incompaibilty with some of the fields in the files formats.

One would also need to check the licence conditions some models prohibit conversion or use in another sim.

[SurvivorSean]

What I'm more curious (though I'm sure if I dug up enough info I could find out) is not so much if OR is going to be compatible with other sims as it probably will not and that is just fine by me. I'm curious if other programs will be able to interact with OR.

My main focus for me and RTS for example is car forwarding over large distances and keeping track of them in a multi-player environment. If I have something say in the next year that actually allows live yardmasters to interact with one another in real time am I going to be able to use that data as part of an ORTS session say whenever ORTS is at the point of being capable to allow this to happen?

Waiting for the future to catch up is much more interesting than battling outdated software or building something from scratch. I know OR has many long term plans for multi-player and random car functions. I'm just not sure how far it's going to be able to go on it's own. I'd love to be able to meet half way in another year or so.

Thanks

Sean

[OTTODAD]

I don't think that different Train Simulators will ever be compatible with each other, the same as none of the various Flight Simulators are.

I will be happy to get a Train Simulator one day which can roll the best of all of the better existing ones into one !

Got a feeling that I am too old to see that happen any time soon !

O t t o

[SurvivorSean]

Not talking Train Simulators. I'm more interested in knowing if other dispatching, yardmaster, and mp servers can tie into OR. My presence here isn't by accident as I can go about 3 different directions this year. Of course I could be here because I'm bored but I won't admit to that.

Thanks

Sean

[OTTODAD]

Of course I could be here because I'm bored but I won't admit to that.

I am because I am bored, there nothing much exciting happening with train simulators at the moment.

O t t o

[longiron]

Not talking Train Simulators. I'm more interested in knowing if other dispatching, yardmaster, and mp servers can tie into OR. My presence here isn't by accident as I can go about 3 different directions this year. Of course I could be here because I'm bored but I won't admit to that.

Thanks

Sean

Sean,
With the next public download, the Open Rails team will be distributing the source code as a separate download. This should provide community members the ability to inspect the code. this should assist in understanding where functions are and how the are structured in the code.

The OR team is planning on implementing a "dispatcher" function as part of the base interlocking and signal system. We will see how far we get over the near term. It's initial role is to allow Players to manually change signal states to free deadlocks or stand offs if they occur. Eventually, this will be a foundational piece to the multi-player capabilities.

[SurvivorSean]

Hi Chris:

Thanks for that info. When I was interested in joining the OR team before I had a chance to look at the code, but I figured it was out of date. I'll certainly have a look see when it comes down the pipe.

I think I'm personally going to stay away from the dispatching side of things (though it is a passion of mine). The reason I say this is it's a goal of OR, and I know the author of Post-T is on-board with OR as well so I'm sure his input will be certainly considered.

I'm probably going to start pushing the envelope on bringing in a multi-player car forwarding system similar to FYM/YD. I'm also looking at building in the functions similar to Activity Generator to bring in the data to MSTS activities. I can't seem to control the AI as well as I would like in MSTS, but both loose and player consists can be easily edited by an external program.

Thanks again for the info.

Sean