Present ORTS limitations?

[conrail1]

They've built an entirely new game that doesn't rely on the MSTS game engine

It's obvious that it doesn't rely on the MSTS game engine so what game engine does it rely on, is it not derived from MS XNA framework?

If your definition of a new game engine is SOLELY defined by having its own content creation tools -- stay tuned.

Maybe not so much “having its own content creation tools” but having content that was created specifically for that particular game/sim.

[conrail1]

Anybody who is not a member of the team and does not know the tools used by it to create ORTS can not make useful suggestions of what to do

Lol, you don't have to be a “member” of the team to know what “tools” were used, just look at the OpenRails documentation. It's an OPEN project so why would you think that information about the game engine would be some top secret info?

[twpol]

Maybe you could elaborate?

On what? That you tried to make it sound like I said something entirely different to what I actually did?

[conrail1]

On what?

This -

we don't actually use much of XNA in OR

and this -

I don't think we'd actually have much trouble switching to pure DirectX or OpenGL if we decided that's what was needed.

That you tried to make it sound like I said something entirely different to what I actually did?

I did? Would it be easier to bring OR into a new game engine that uses either OpenGL or DirectX 11 now or later on when development gets further along?

[twpol]

I did?

I said pure DirectX or OpenGL, not a game engine. I don't think they're the same thing. From where I sit almost nothing I'd consider part of a game engine is handled by XNA - it's all done by OR code. I'm thinking about managing complete objects (i.e. a single thing made of textures and meshes), animations, LOD, culling, resource loading, etc. here.

XNA handles the main window setup, basic game loop and shader compiling/loading, none of which would be particularly hard to do ourselves if we wanted to. Everything else we use is just DirectX 9 shims, wrapping the interfaces in reasonably nice classes.

So from my POV, OR is a game engine itself. It's certainly not complete or anything, but I do not presently see any need to try and fit OR into another game engine. Indeed, changing game engines is not a trivial task, as I think you were going for earlier.

What, exactly, do you think is holding OR back with XNA?

[lindsayts]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm, Lets not get to heated here, Remember this is a a VOLUNTEER effort the developers are the ones doing the development. One must make sure not to upset them, we will then have NOTHING.

The biggest problem with an accurate train sim is NOT the programming inteface used, its the knowledge required. All the comercial train sims I have tried suffer more or less serverely from this problem.
My view of programming may be different from others but the API is of little consequence one once gets to know it. I have converted more than a few OpenGL example programs from Windows specfic source to Linux with little problems.
The problem is getting an algorithim that will do what you require in the time one has availble.

Another point I would like to make is do NOT get to tied up with OR giving much higher detail levels. There is a maximum number of triangles a graphics subsystem can do and due to the nature of a trainsim notably requiring detail viewing at both close and far distances (signals for instance) the pressure on the graphics engine to use large numbers of these triangles is high. It will almost certainly be fairly easy in the future with a decent route editor to push such limits to its extreme and end up with very low frame rates. Such problems are in the nature of terrain display and NOT limitations of the development people.

The OR developers are doing a great job, ANY indication they are not is not apreciated by this person anyway.

Keep up the good work,
Lindsay

[conrail1]

I said pure DirectX or OpenGL, not a game engine. I don't think they're the same thing.

Does a game not need some sort of game engine to be developed or run? Is the game engine that OpenRails uses not derived form XNA game frame work which of course coming from Microsoft uses DirectX?

I do not presently see any need to try and fit OR into another game engine.

It all goes back to selecting the right game engine for that particular game and based on what's expected now from that game and down the road.

Indeed, changing game engines is not a trivial task, as I think you were going for earlier.

That's exactly what I was going for earlier.

What, exactly, do you think is holding OR back with XNA?

Right now in OpenRails current state it's not holding it back but in the future as it progresses that's going to change.

[twpol]

Does a game not need some sort of game engine to be developed or run? Is the game engine that OpenRails uses not derived form XNA game frame work which of course coming from Microsoft uses DirectX?

I really don't think you've read and understood what I said, so I don't see any point taking this discussion any further.

[conrail1]

Remember this is a a VOLUNTEER effort the developers are the ones doing the development. One must make sure not to upset them, we will then have NOTHING.

Exactly it's an OPEN project so no one should be getting upset from answering questions to begin with.

There is a maximum number of triangles a graphics subsystem can do and due to the nature of a trainsim notably requiring detail viewing at both close and far distances

It will almost certainly be fairly easy in the future with a decent route editor to push such limits to its extreme and end up with very low frame rates. Such problems are in the nature of terrain display and NOT limitations of the development people.

A lot of that is dependent on how well the game engine handles that detail and making decisions about about the development of and what game engine to use is obviously tied to the limitations of the development people.

[conrail1]

I really don't think you've read and understood what I said, so I don't see any point taking this discussion any further.

Which part didn't I understand?

[longiron]

I think you're missing the distinction between a 3D graphics engine and a game engine.

(Wikipedia) The core functionality typically provided by a game engine includes a rendering engine (“renderer”) for 2D or 3D graphics, a physics engine or collision detection (and collision response), sound, scripting, animation, artificial intelligence, networking, streaming, memory management, threading, localization support, and a scene graph.

Open Rails is developing its own game engine (physics, collision, sound, animation, AI, etc) using XNA as only the rendering engine. That's why James indicated that it would be easier to switch the rendering engine from XNA to DirectX or OpenGL than to move to another game engine.

[conrail1]

I think you're missing the distinction between a 3D graphics engine and a game engine.

You're right, I didn't separate the rendering function from the rest of the game engine since most today that I know of are tied together and are written in either DirectX or OpenGL (using either DirectX or OpenGL API calls).

Open Rails is developing its own game engine (physics, collision, sound, animation, AI, etc) using XNA as only the rendering engine.

That's quite the undertaking, do you have volunteers with actual game engine development experience working on the project? I would have thought with Microsoft's XNA you'd be tied into using DirectX API calls.

[twpol]

That's quite the undertaking, do you have volunteers with actual game engine development experience working on the project? I would have thought with Microsoft's XNA you'd be tied into using DirectX API calls.

We do, actually, both from the commercial end and the hobby end. Not sure how XNA and DirectX are relevant here.

[conrail1]

We do, actually, both from the commercial end and the hobby end.

Interesting, can you mention any game titles that they were involved in?

Not sure how XNA and DirectX are relevant here.

Chris says that OpenRails uses Microsoft's XNA for the rendering, is it not written to use DirectX?

[twpol]

Chris says that OpenRails uses Microsoft's XNA for the rendering, is it not written to use DirectX?

Yes, of course it is. What's the relevance of that?