Add-ons requiring original MSTS content

[mestevet]

I was just reading some OR threads, and saw a question about "how much will it cost?" At first, it seems like an obvious answer "it's free, open source, etc." But then it got me thinking, I know it's a stand alone simulator intended to have backwards compatibility with MSTS routes, rolling stock, and other add-ons, but what if those add-ons require original MSTS content to function correctly?

Say you're a NEW rail simmer, and you want to try out Open Rails. You download it, but you don't have MSTS. So you try to download a route and some rolling stock (all hypothetical). Don't many routes have batch files that copy items from the original MSTS routes? If you don't have MSTS installed, your route installation would fail (as so many do when they don't have or removed the default MSTS routes). So that would limit you to routes that don't require any items from the default routes, or else, you'd have to scrounge up a copy of MSTS (which is increasingly difficult and costly to find) to acquire them.

Rolling stock is another item. While models and textures for new rolling stock are typically all original content, many rolling stock items use default MSTS items for the cab and for sounds. While capable modelers can certainly replace the MSTS items with original ones (for instance, I have a "catalog" of different switch sounds that could be used to replace the often used default sounds for locomotive cabs), still, it would mean that those items wouldn't be useable by someone without MSTS.

The only thing that I could see that might give a way out was this statement from the "Content EULA", but I'm not certain, does this just apply to the additional content download that was available later?

• Personal Use: Subject to the following, you may use, edit and modify the Software Product solely for use in Microsoft Train Simulator and limited to personal, non-commercial use on your home computer. You may share the Software Product with family or friends, provided they accept the terms of this EULA, but you may not sell or otherwise distribute the Software Product in exchange for monetary or other value or in any commercial manner.

That would seem to allow an exchange of the content being referred to as long as it was for non-commercial use. But again, I'm not sure this was talking about ALL MSTS content, based on the date of the file, I think it might've been the additional, later content addition.

I'm not necessarily saying this is an issue that the OR team must solve, but I just wanted to point it out as food for thought, and see if anyone has any better insight into how this could be dealt with or done away with.

Steve

[wacampbell]

There should be no copying and sharing of the content off the MSTS CD's. If you want OpenRails to run routes that rely on this content ( and most do now), then you will have to own MSTS.

But eventually route builders and rolling stock builders will create routes that are fully independant of MSTS and when that time comes, OpenRails users won't need MSTS anymore.

[sniper297]

I'm not a member of the development team (my programming skills are limited to setting my watch to the correct time, given best of three tries), but from what I understand the eventual goal is a new train simulator which has its own content, but will be able to run old MSTS content as well. In other words, a newby coming along five years from now will have Open Rails and whatever content has been developed for that, any of the old salts who have ancient fossilized MSTS content will be able to run that along with the new content.

[mestevet]

Certainly, gentlemen, I get that in the future the content can be perfectly clear of default MSTS items, whether it's brand new original, or rework of existing items that are using it now (I'm looking at my own stuff - jeez, even stuff that uses the default "wagon" sounds falls into this category).

I also get that without some positive statement from the copyright holder (is it still Microsoft? or has that passed along - or was it just distribution rights?) allowing redistribution of original MSTS content, that NO ONE SHOULD BE REDISTRIBUTING DEFAULT MSTS CONTENT. I was just wondering about the current status of this situation, if at some point MS may have said they'd allow redistribution of the content or something nutty like that. I know there's a statement allowing modification of stuff for non-commercial use in the "Editor Software EULA" which was included with the original MSTS from disk:

• Personal Use: Subject to the following, you may use the Editors to modify the Train Simulator Content provided that your use of the Train Simulator Content is limited to personal, non-commercial use on your home computer. You may share the modified Train Simulator Content with family or friends but you may not sell or otherwise distribute the modified Train Simulator Content in exchange for monetary or other value or in any commercial manner.

My point is that there's the potential for a lot of disappointment when some newb without MSTS tries to download a route to run just with Open Rails, and finds out he's got to come up with MSTS to run just about anything (just looking, it looks like "New" copies of MSTS start around $63, and "used" copies are starting at anything from about $10 on Ebay to $20 on Amazon, personally, I'd only get a used one in desperation). There's going to be a lag time between now and "five years from now" where there's very little "MSTS Free" content to be used with Open Rails.

I can just see all the annoying complaints right now of "OR sux cuz I can't use any addon routes that are in the file library" - you know what I mean?

I'd just like to see if the brain trust around here can come up with ideas to keep this from getting in the way of successful adoption of OR. Sure, all of us who have MSTS don't have a problem, but the wider the community that adopts it, the richer we'll be - some of the guys creating new stuff in 5 years are going to be the Newbs that get started on stuff a year from now.

Steve

{thinking further about this, I forgot about something very basic: track shapes - certainly X Tracks and others have added and replaced many shapes, but there are still some of the original, default content shapes that are used in a large number of routes, maybe even in routes where everything else is "original content"}

[OTTODAD]

I have been messing around with this earlier, realizing that ORTS can be started by running it's EXEs at the Command Line prompt:



I had to type all this at the Command prompt but BATCH files could to the job easier.

You can see from this what it is that ORTS needs in order to run a route's activity.

You can point it to any MSTS MAIN or MINI route anywhere on your HD, but a route and activity depends on many files, some in it's own folders and others at the core of MSTS, such as GLOBAL and it's SHAPES, GUI, SOUND and TRAINS folders, etc.

But there is a discipline which decides where data in the WORLD and TILES folders has to be loaded from, also consulting the GLOBAL Tsection, Sound and Camera, etc DAT files, which ORTS has to follow.

Then there is signaling, the running of AI trains, animations of all sorts used in MSTS routes, etc, etc.

Creating new routes for ORTS would have to follow the same rules as MSTS for them to work, requiring the use of the MSTS RGE and the Route Editor.

You can not have one version of ORTS which is compatible with MSTS routes and another one for created specifically for ORTS ones using it's own routes generator.

I think that the main objective of ORTS is to make use of the vast number of add-on everything, but make as much as possible look and perform better ?

MSTS can still be purchased at low prices here in the UK and will continue to do so for a while yet !

http://www.gameseek.co.uk/pd/PC7zzj8a85gw0n9w1s

http://www.play.com/Games/PC/4-/857807/Microsoft-Train-Simulator/Product.html

Perhaps they could get a license from M$ to sell copies of MSTS ?

I hope all that this makes sense !

O t t o

[muskokaandtahoe]

I can just see all the annoying complaints right now of "OR sux cuz I can't use any addon routes that are in the file library" - you know what I mean?

I'd just like to see if the brain trust around here can come up with ideas to keep this from getting in the way of successful adoption of OR.
Steve

Other than a few tracks, is anyone still using texture or shape files dated from 2001?

So if this issue you've raised is a real concern the answer is to make a copy of the most widely re-used default shapes... and tweek them. The Microsoft EULA allows anyone to create a derivative work from their route content (e.g., tweek & improve their stuff). All of it. Those new versions are now free and clear to be distributed on a non commercial basis (n.b., have you ever thought about all those payware routes that use default Shapes? They didn't distribute anything but they used MS content for own commercial purposes giving no payment to MS for that use; was that completely ok?).

What cannot be done is to redistribute non-route stuff, like programs.

[wacampbell]

The purpose of OpenRails isn't to deliver a free simulator. Its not directed at the casual downloader. They will be disappointed. We definitely have to reset expectations. OpenRails is for the individual who wants realistic train operations and is willing to go to some effort to achieve this. This person is willing spend money on a top of the line PC to run it on, willing to expend the effort to gather all the program bits necessary, is willing to buy whatever payware is necessary to deliver the experience they are after. Ten bucks for MSTS is nothing.

[mestevet]

My example is the Freeware Pacific Surfliner route. It's a relatively recent, popular route. It has a batch file that must be run that copies elements from the default routes. Certainly, there may be some replacement shapes/textures for some or even many of those original elements, but have they all been replaced? I honestly don't know. And how easy would it be for anyone, even someone who's not a newb, to accumulate all those things if MSTS was unavailable?

I also tend to think that just saying "in 5 years it won't be a problem" or "this is for experts only", or "MSTS will always be available" (there've been times when I've looked on behalf of others and not found a copy of MSTS, even used for under $90) is sticking our heads in the sand.

Look, Newbs ARE going to download this. And the community of experts and the OR team are going to be left dealing with their issues. Is it right to just say "oh you're not an expert, you can't run OR" - that's just elitist (as opposed to whether you're able to say 'hundred' correctly or not ). And even if you're NOT a newb, how many people have we seen who said "my computer crashed, my MSTS disks won't load..." and they're good, old hands?

Maybe the solution IS to tweak the MSTS stuff and have it available somewhere for those situations that don't fit the ideal of "MSTS available" and "Experts Only" and "tons of MSTS free content". Or maybe it's to compile a list of available "upgrades" or alternates that can be used instead of the original MSTS (Route Riter can swap stuff out wholesale, can't it?). Or maybe, as stated, someone can license the default content and provide it.

Steve

[wacampbell]

Maybe the solution IS to tweak the MSTS stuff and have it available somewhere for those situations that don't fit the ideal of "MSTS available" and "Experts Only" and "tons of MSTS free content". Or maybe it's to compile a list of available "upgrades" or alternates that can be used instead of the original MSTS (Route Riter can swap stuff out wholesale, can't it?). Or maybe, as stated, someone can license the default content and provide it.

This is a good idea. I hope it happens. I'll leave it to the community to organize this effort.

[csantucci]

Maybe the problem pointed out by mestevet could exist for someone in the future. But I really hope that the OR team doesn't want to be involved in solving the problem or in entering MSTS files licensing questions. Let's them concentrate on the OR simulator (and I am happy of what wacampbell writes in this thread)!
As of now, if someone wants to run under OR stuff that needs some MSTS original files, he is supposed to have regularly bought MSTS.

[OTTODAD]

Other than a few tracks, is anyone still using texture or shape files dated from 2001?

We all have !

I have 5909 shape *.s files dated 2001, many duplicated in routes SHAPES folders as well as their ACE files in routes TEXTURES folders, Installme.bat files having copied into them from the default routes !

O t t o