MTA train derails in New York 4 people dead

[BNSF1959]

Alright folks, Just chill out or the padlock will come. Let's not make any more speculations until the investigation by the authorities is over. You only know what's given by the news medias and I don't care if you think you are an expert on this. Every case or scenario is different. It could be a number of factors. Let's cut out the speculations and let's cool it and I mean it!

[conrail1]

Let's not make any more speculations until the investigation by the authorities is over. You only know what's given by the news medias and I don't care if you think you are an expert on this.

I'm not just going by information from the news media and like I mentioned earlier the engineer has pretty much already admitted to dozing off, fatigue is nothing new with incidents like this.


One thing I should have mentioned is that if this territory is now using ACSES ( a stand alone Automatic Train Control system only used on the NEC to my knowledge) then my responses in this thread would be different.

[BNSF1959]

I'm not just going by information from the news media and like I mentioned earlier the engineer has pretty much already admitted to dozing off, fatigue is nothing new with incidents like this.

Ok, I can go along with this but, keep in mind that they are still investigating this matter. I am aware of what the engineer has told the investigators and medias. I do watch CNN and other news agencies on this matter. I don't see any point to carry on speculations while they are still investigating by NTSB.

[conrail1]

Ok, I can go along with this but, keep in mind that they are still investigating this matter.

I completely agree and having actual experience myself I'm not one to go and throw the crew involved in an incident under the bus right out of the box without seeing all of the facts either. This will most likely end up with the usual rubber stamp report from the NTSB which will conclude that if PTC was in service this incident would have been avoided.

All the cab signal systems I've operated with have ATS. The train will receive a penalty brake application whenever the engineer does not acknowledge a cab signal aspect downgrade. Pressing the CS acknowledge button or foot switch within 6 seconds will prevent the penalty from occurring.

Automatic Train Control (LSL, PHW, ACSES) was also a part of most the CS systems I have experience with. It imposes set speed limits on all cab signal aspects and will initiate a penalty brake application whenever the train exceeds the speed limit by 3 mph. The ATC system (NEC) also uses braking profile curves whenever the cab signal aspects downgrade. If the braking curve is exceeded the system will initiate a penalty brake application.

[dedwa15237]

Conrail1, Do you have the Amtrak/Metro-North operating rules & instructions book? I do.. Look at page 157 after 900-NG1 (new update rev 06-06-13) "CSS rules applies from CP12-CP169/Division Post-CSX" (Amtrak acquired trackage from CSX-Poughkeepsie to Albany Rennsalaer then towards Hoffman's (near Amsterdam))

Sputyen Duyvil is MP10, so its not in cab signal territory.... CP 12 to north is the beginning of Amtrak-MN Hudson Line. When I heard about this derailment, I knew clearly someone was not paying attention and zonked out on the throttle in the first place.. I dont need all this media hype and other issues.. Metro-North has better safety equipment compatible like Amtrak's, but I know there was not any equipment issues.

So, relax, chill out and just like what Ken says, wait til NTSB finalizes the investigation.

[conrail1]

Conrail1, Do you have the Amtrak/Metro-North operating rules & instructions book? I do.. Look at page 157 after 900-NG1 (new update rev 06-06-13) "CSS rules applies from CP12-CP169/Division Post-CSX" (Amtrak acquired trackage from CSX-Poughkeepsie to Albany Rennsalaer then towards Hoffman's (near Amsterdam))

Amtrak yes, Metro-North no, the last time I was down there was on SEOP or the Tarrytown job which was gone after 1996. After that it was only as far as Hudson with the grain trains except for the occasional deadhead on Amtrak but what would that have to do with the comments made here about how the CS works?

Sputyen Duyvil is MP10, so its not in cab signal territory.... CP 12 to north is the beginning of Amtrak-MN Hudson Line. When I heard about this derailment, I knew clearly someone was not paying attention and zonked out on the throttle in the first place..

So wouldn't that go along with what I said initially?

[dedwa15237]

No...

CSS rules will not activate anything from station to MP12.. It is just plain old NYC signal system... it does not have all the features to activate the penalty brake application or anything in that matter. Simply stated...

[conrail1]

No...

CSS rules will not activate anything from station to MP12.. It is just plain old NYC signal system... it does not have all the features to activate the penalty brake application or anything in that matter. Simply stated...

Read back through this thread, here's the the comment I was responding to -

there are no wayside signals as Cab Signals are used.I dont understand how the train got from an area of 75 MPH running to the first speed restricted zone of 70 MPH and finally to the 30 MPH speed zone that governs the Spuyten Duyvil curve as well as the Amtrak junction to Penn Station without the Alerter going off and being acknowledged or failing that,going into Emergency.

It is just plain old NYC signal system... it does not have all the features to activate the penalty brake application or anything in that matter.

By the way whether it's CS territory or not it's most likely still using some form of ATC, LSL/ATS which of course will still initiate a penalty brake application.

[dedwa15237]

Get the most active and recent Metro-North ETT that I told you, read it... all the information is there... there is NO CSS rules applied on that line between those points... Period... and its closed..

[conrail1]

CSS on Metro-North

Dedwa15237 -
Get the most active and recent Metro-North ETT that I told you, read it... all the information is there... there is NO CSS rules applied on that line between those points... Period... and its closed..

Never said there was, again look at what motormaster532 posted. I also said whether it's CS territory or not, the LSL/ATS is still capable of giving you a penalty brake application.

[BNSF1959]

Here is the latest on the investigation of what the engineer said. This topic will remain locked and only latest updates will be posted.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/12/03/us/new-york-train-crash/index.html?hpt=hp_t4

[conrail1]

Sounds awfully familiar

I'm surprised no one has already posted this but here's some info on the MetroNorth incident (right from Railway Age) -



http://www.railwayage.com/index.php/...njures-63.html

The section of Metro-North right-of-way where the accident occurred is equipped with a cab signal system that, while enforcing train separation with a penalty brake application if the engineer does not respond to the speed indication, does not enforce civil speed restrictions on curves. At this particular location, there is a drastic reduction in track speed, from 70 mph to 30 mph. Though Rockefeller made an emergency brake application (“dumped the air”), it was too late to reduce the train’s speed to where it could have negotiated the curve without derailing. Also, the train’s cab car, though equipped with a “deadman’s pedal,” was not equipped with an alerter system that Rockefeller would have had to acknowledge on a regular basis (approximately every 30 to 45 seconds).

Compare that info with this discussion -

https://www.trainsim.com/vbts/showthread.php?316845-MTA-train-derails-in-New-York-4-people-dead

Just recently, the MTA awarded a contract to a consortium of Bombardier Transportation Rail Control Solutions and Siemens Rail Automation for an overlay vital PTC system on both Metro-North and the Long Island Rail Road. Such a system would presumably have prevented this most recent wreck, though other sources Railway Age spoke with for this article said that the relatively simple civil speed enforcement feature that currently is not present in Metro-North’s existing cab signal equipment—but employed by Amtrak on the Northeast Corridor—could very well have provided the same safety benefits as PTC.

http://www.railwayage.com/index.php/...tent=Full+Blog